With housing out of reach, wages stagnant, and traditional career paths fading, young men are searching for a sense of purpose—and finding it in all the wrong places.
Interestingly, these guys are trying so hard to prove how "manly" they are that they end up proving the opposite. It's a very insecure teenager way to look at the world.
A small but I believe important distinction of word usage.
"His content preaches self-discipline, financial independence, and extreme masculinity."
He DOES NOT preach "extreme masculinity." He proposes that misogyny, brutality, aggression, and violence, are the essential character traits for "masculine" men. This is an extremist view of what masculinity should look like, but it is not masculinity in any way shape or form.
While I agree with Olivia for the most part I do feel as though something's been left out.
Clearly not all young men are suffering in the way she describes here. So my questions are:
What do the numbers say? What percent of men are struggling with their masculinity and with finding their place in the world.
What are the backgrounds of the two groups - those who are struggling and those who are not? What kind of families were they brought up in. How were they taught about the world. What expectations were placed upon them. And because it's 2025 as well as several decades since the christonationalist Republicans have been pushing their agenda through gaslighting and lies, how much has that played a role.* IOW what part does the times we're living in play.
*We know through the 2024 election the gaslighting and lies have filtered down fairly strongly through the country.
For so long, women were financially dependent on men. They cared for children and the home without a proper paycheck, and if that support disappeared through divorce or death, the remaining family was left in poverty.
Women fought to get education, jobs that were previously given only to men, the right to birth control, the right to vote. They didn't sit back and just commiserate, they DID something to work toward the rights that they wanted and deserved.
These men with all their grievances, are not liking that they have treated women and minorities the way that they themselves are now being treated, and gee, they don't like it. Their hate is not going to fix what's wrong. They need mature, empathetic leaders who will show them a productive way forward that will benefit all of us.
Unfortunately, the human species seems to be capable of unlimited hate, but very limited or even absent empathy and kindness. If we as a species can't overcome this trait, I fear we are doomed.
Given that, with our big brains, we still wage war instead of solving problems, I celebrate our doom. We don't deserve to rule the world. Trump has certainly made that clear.
"As long as they feel unheard, they’ll keep turning toward the loudest voice that acknowledges them." I feel like this quote explains so very much of what is going on all around us.
I have some thoughts about whether it should be called a masculinity crisis or a crisis of a lack of purpose. People want to belong to something bigger than themselves, which is why cults, such as MAGA, can take advantage of that desire.
1) Until the U.S. moved to an all-volunteer army, most young men would serve in the armed forces for a year or two. While I am not suggesting that we bring back the draft (although if we ever do, it must include women as well), the leveling experience it provided, as well as a sense of common purpose and discipline, probably helped some young men find themselves and exposed them to the wider population of the U.S..
2) Many of these young men probably did have mothers who worked outside the home. Only in the upper middle class or above, or perhaps if people lived in an area with lower cost of living, could a single wage earner manage, and often that single wage earner would be a mother with no father in sight.
3. Divorce has been around a long time. I have been startled in researching on Ancestry to see the amount of divorce, which we have been led to believe was solely the result of the 1960s and 1970s movement toward female equality. It may have been less socially acceptable, but it was certainly a fact of life. (Read the court listings in old newspapers.)
4. I agree that the expense of a college education is a major factor. Personally. I would take colleges and universities out of the sports business, especially for purposes of being farm teams for the NFL and the NBA. Go back to club sports.
5. Body shaming for young men has been around for a long time, but I agree that it has skyrocketed with social media, just as it has for young women.
6. Organizations that used to give young men a place to belong have waned. That includes church groups, Boy Scouts, and even sports, as more schools consolidate in rural and even urban areas, and there are fewer spots available on teams. To some extent, that lack of organizations to support them exists for young women as well. These organizations, when run appropriately, had role models, taught useful skills, provided mentors, and established the idea of working for a community larger than oneself.
I'm not disagreeing with Olivia but attempting to broaden the conversation. David Hogg, in the last election, asked what the Democratic party was doing to reach out to young men, and he was ignored. We need to reach out to ALL young people, and we need to focus on class and economics.
6. Organizations that used to give young men a place to belong have waned. That includes church groups, Boy Scouts, and even sports, as more schools consolidate in rural and even urban areas, and there are fewer spots available on teams. To some extent, that lack of organizations to support them exists for young women as well. These organizations, when run appropriately, had role models, taught useful skills, provided mentors, and established the idea of working for a community larger than oneself.
I'm not disagreeing with Olivia but attempting to broaden the conversation. David Hogg, in the last election, asked what the Democratic party was doing to reach out to young men, and he was ignored. We need to reach out to ALL young people, and we need to focus on class and economics.
I remember years ago there was another misogynistic comedian that young men worshiped. That was Andrew Dice Clay. I don't think anyone talks much about him anymore.
And therein lies the roots of another big problem The Gen Z men who are embracing the crap that Tate spews are almost certainly driving most young women away from them -- because I can't imagine that any woman with a decent self-image would put up with that stuff (and they shouldn't put up with it). And guess who those toxic young men are going to blame for why they can't find any women who are interested in them? If they've taken what Tate teaches to heart, they're certainly not going to engage in any self-examination, so inevitably they will blame the women. Which means that they'll get even more misogynistic.
There's a nasty loop of apparently "hyper-masculine" but actually very self-destructive behavior that may be getting established, and somehow that loop needs to be broken.
Toxic masculinity is one of the forces, along with racism and religious fanaticism, that is driving this country into the ditch. This is not going to end well.
Isn’t the alternative to redefine masculinity? If the traditional definition was only a breadwinner then why not broaden what it means to include empathy, kindness, giving back to community, taking on care of children (most millennial and younger men want to be very involved in their children’s lives), being an equal partner, etc.?
I’ve long said that women have SO many acceptable choices for their lives now, why not give the same freedom to men? How many in this chat scoff at or judge (even if only in your head) men who are stay at home Dads? Society did a good job changing the conversation for women but forgot that would also change the conversation for men and now we are living with the consequences of those action.
News flash to the boys, we already DID redefine masculinity. Anybody remember the sensitive '80s man? The sensitive '90s man? That wasn't just a fluke, it was a trend. We already responded well to those changes. This current "crisis" is just the usual backlash to anything good and progressive in this country. No wonder the guys feel like shit. You can't go back in time.
Nah... that was a spinoff. I mean the guys who came around on doing dishes, child care, not being self-centered checkouts. We women noticed, and we're not going back. And I say this having no kids and having bought my first dishwasher at age 60. It's an attitude, not the stuff so much :)
Maybe so, but I wonder if it’s more the exception than the norm? In Minneapolis in the mid 2010’s people would look at a woman sideways if her husband stayed home with their kids when they were little. I’ve seen a majority Dad’s as bike commuters dropping off kids at school/daycare in Seattle neighborhoods in the last couple years, but I don’t know that it’s socially acceptable / done everywhere in the US?
I think the trend has continued, and that the backlash to it is not succeeding. What woman these days wants to give over her life to child management to free up time for her husband to hang out with his buddies?
I also think the unhappy men have bought into the "we don't need no stinkin' empathy" crap demonstrated by Trump, in a "well, he gets away with it" fashion. But that only works for sociopaths, and note, guys: he is on his third wife and appears to be deeply, deeply unhappy. Ditto for the women.
The popularity of things like Ballerina Farm and Evie magazine (Peter Thiel funded) might point you to the conclusion of young women valuing large families over independence. Emily Amick has been talking about this for a while, the social media conservative girlie movement pulling women in particular more right (hormonal birth control is bad, MAHA). But I guess my original thought was on expanding the definition of masculinity to include empathy and care. For example, why is there such anxiety on capital hill around bringing back manufacturing jobs but not filling the shortage of teachers, nurses, childcare workers? Are those jobs only “feminine” jobs? If that’s what society thinks, why is that? It’s a big cultural problem, IMHO, and perhaps truly redefining masculinity is the cultural problem of our time?
Please please The Contrarian make sure your creators activate the voice over feature. As a paid subscriber I’m missing about half of your content. While caring for a spouse with dementia , the voiceover is the only way I can get the information I need to be an activist. (I’ve already reached out to Substack for help but they say the problem is on your end.
I am watching the movie "SingSing" on HBO as I comment. I saw the movie in the theater, and am even more impressed seeing it again. Based on a theater program for prisoners, it provides an outlet for these men. It allows thrm to express emotions thry hid. It provides them with the chance to let go of behavior thatclwas destructive. It humanizes these men.
It's a reminder of the way in which the arts can be a positive force.
Interestingly, these guys are trying so hard to prove how "manly" they are that they end up proving the opposite. It's a very insecure teenager way to look at the world.
Imagine being Trump and living that way for nigh on 80 years. He is stunted in every way.
A small but I believe important distinction of word usage.
"His content preaches self-discipline, financial independence, and extreme masculinity."
He DOES NOT preach "extreme masculinity." He proposes that misogyny, brutality, aggression, and violence, are the essential character traits for "masculine" men. This is an extremist view of what masculinity should look like, but it is not masculinity in any way shape or form.
While I agree with Olivia for the most part I do feel as though something's been left out.
Clearly not all young men are suffering in the way she describes here. So my questions are:
What do the numbers say? What percent of men are struggling with their masculinity and with finding their place in the world.
What are the backgrounds of the two groups - those who are struggling and those who are not? What kind of families were they brought up in. How were they taught about the world. What expectations were placed upon them. And because it's 2025 as well as several decades since the christonationalist Republicans have been pushing their agenda through gaslighting and lies, how much has that played a role.* IOW what part does the times we're living in play.
*We know through the 2024 election the gaslighting and lies have filtered down fairly strongly through the country.
For so long, women were financially dependent on men. They cared for children and the home without a proper paycheck, and if that support disappeared through divorce or death, the remaining family was left in poverty.
Women fought to get education, jobs that were previously given only to men, the right to birth control, the right to vote. They didn't sit back and just commiserate, they DID something to work toward the rights that they wanted and deserved.
These men with all their grievances, are not liking that they have treated women and minorities the way that they themselves are now being treated, and gee, they don't like it. Their hate is not going to fix what's wrong. They need mature, empathetic leaders who will show them a productive way forward that will benefit all of us.
Unfortunately, the human species seems to be capable of unlimited hate, but very limited or even absent empathy and kindness. If we as a species can't overcome this trait, I fear we are doomed.
Given that, with our big brains, we still wage war instead of solving problems, I celebrate our doom. We don't deserve to rule the world. Trump has certainly made that clear.
Wait--he wears a shirt with his own picture on it? Nuff said.
"As long as they feel unheard, they’ll keep turning toward the loudest voice that acknowledges them." I feel like this quote explains so very much of what is going on all around us.
I have some thoughts about whether it should be called a masculinity crisis or a crisis of a lack of purpose. People want to belong to something bigger than themselves, which is why cults, such as MAGA, can take advantage of that desire.
1) Until the U.S. moved to an all-volunteer army, most young men would serve in the armed forces for a year or two. While I am not suggesting that we bring back the draft (although if we ever do, it must include women as well), the leveling experience it provided, as well as a sense of common purpose and discipline, probably helped some young men find themselves and exposed them to the wider population of the U.S..
2) Many of these young men probably did have mothers who worked outside the home. Only in the upper middle class or above, or perhaps if people lived in an area with lower cost of living, could a single wage earner manage, and often that single wage earner would be a mother with no father in sight.
3. Divorce has been around a long time. I have been startled in researching on Ancestry to see the amount of divorce, which we have been led to believe was solely the result of the 1960s and 1970s movement toward female equality. It may have been less socially acceptable, but it was certainly a fact of life. (Read the court listings in old newspapers.)
4. I agree that the expense of a college education is a major factor. Personally. I would take colleges and universities out of the sports business, especially for purposes of being farm teams for the NFL and the NBA. Go back to club sports.
5. Body shaming for young men has been around for a long time, but I agree that it has skyrocketed with social media, just as it has for young women.
6. Organizations that used to give young men a place to belong have waned. That includes church groups, Boy Scouts, and even sports, as more schools consolidate in rural and even urban areas, and there are fewer spots available on teams. To some extent, that lack of organizations to support them exists for young women as well. These organizations, when run appropriately, had role models, taught useful skills, provided mentors, and established the idea of working for a community larger than oneself.
I'm not disagreeing with Olivia but attempting to broaden the conversation. David Hogg, in the last election, asked what the Democratic party was doing to reach out to young men, and he was ignored. We need to reach out to ALL young people, and we need to focus on class and economics.
The post got cut off, here is the rest:
6. Organizations that used to give young men a place to belong have waned. That includes church groups, Boy Scouts, and even sports, as more schools consolidate in rural and even urban areas, and there are fewer spots available on teams. To some extent, that lack of organizations to support them exists for young women as well. These organizations, when run appropriately, had role models, taught useful skills, provided mentors, and established the idea of working for a community larger than oneself.
I'm not disagreeing with Olivia but attempting to broaden the conversation. David Hogg, in the last election, asked what the Democratic party was doing to reach out to young men, and he was ignored. We need to reach out to ALL young people, and we need to focus on class and economics.
Andrew Tate is trash, a ridiculous caricature of a man.
I remember years ago there was another misogynistic comedian that young men worshiped. That was Andrew Dice Clay. I don't think anyone talks much about him anymore.
No way I would want to date that guy if I were a Gen Z woman.
And therein lies the roots of another big problem The Gen Z men who are embracing the crap that Tate spews are almost certainly driving most young women away from them -- because I can't imagine that any woman with a decent self-image would put up with that stuff (and they shouldn't put up with it). And guess who those toxic young men are going to blame for why they can't find any women who are interested in them? If they've taken what Tate teaches to heart, they're certainly not going to engage in any self-examination, so inevitably they will blame the women. Which means that they'll get even more misogynistic.
There's a nasty loop of apparently "hyper-masculine" but actually very self-destructive behavior that may be getting established, and somehow that loop needs to be broken.
Toxic masculinity is one of the forces, along with racism and religious fanaticism, that is driving this country into the ditch. This is not going to end well.
Isn’t the alternative to redefine masculinity? If the traditional definition was only a breadwinner then why not broaden what it means to include empathy, kindness, giving back to community, taking on care of children (most millennial and younger men want to be very involved in their children’s lives), being an equal partner, etc.?
I’ve long said that women have SO many acceptable choices for their lives now, why not give the same freedom to men? How many in this chat scoff at or judge (even if only in your head) men who are stay at home Dads? Society did a good job changing the conversation for women but forgot that would also change the conversation for men and now we are living with the consequences of those action.
News flash to the boys, we already DID redefine masculinity. Anybody remember the sensitive '80s man? The sensitive '90s man? That wasn't just a fluke, it was a trend. We already responded well to those changes. This current "crisis" is just the usual backlash to anything good and progressive in this country. No wonder the guys feel like shit. You can't go back in time.
Do you mean the "metrosexuals"? That was more of a fashion / style thing, I'd say.
Nah... that was a spinoff. I mean the guys who came around on doing dishes, child care, not being self-centered checkouts. We women noticed, and we're not going back. And I say this having no kids and having bought my first dishwasher at age 60. It's an attitude, not the stuff so much :)
Maybe so, but I wonder if it’s more the exception than the norm? In Minneapolis in the mid 2010’s people would look at a woman sideways if her husband stayed home with their kids when they were little. I’ve seen a majority Dad’s as bike commuters dropping off kids at school/daycare in Seattle neighborhoods in the last couple years, but I don’t know that it’s socially acceptable / done everywhere in the US?
I think the trend has continued, and that the backlash to it is not succeeding. What woman these days wants to give over her life to child management to free up time for her husband to hang out with his buddies?
I also think the unhappy men have bought into the "we don't need no stinkin' empathy" crap demonstrated by Trump, in a "well, he gets away with it" fashion. But that only works for sociopaths, and note, guys: he is on his third wife and appears to be deeply, deeply unhappy. Ditto for the women.
The popularity of things like Ballerina Farm and Evie magazine (Peter Thiel funded) might point you to the conclusion of young women valuing large families over independence. Emily Amick has been talking about this for a while, the social media conservative girlie movement pulling women in particular more right (hormonal birth control is bad, MAHA). But I guess my original thought was on expanding the definition of masculinity to include empathy and care. For example, why is there such anxiety on capital hill around bringing back manufacturing jobs but not filling the shortage of teachers, nurses, childcare workers? Are those jobs only “feminine” jobs? If that’s what society thinks, why is that? It’s a big cultural problem, IMHO, and perhaps truly redefining masculinity is the cultural problem of our time?
Scapegoating has a long, very dark history.
Please please The Contrarian make sure your creators activate the voice over feature. As a paid subscriber I’m missing about half of your content. While caring for a spouse with dementia , the voiceover is the only way I can get the information I need to be an activist. (I’ve already reached out to Substack for help but they say the problem is on your end.
I am watching the movie "SingSing" on HBO as I comment. I saw the movie in the theater, and am even more impressed seeing it again. Based on a theater program for prisoners, it provides an outlet for these men. It allows thrm to express emotions thry hid. It provides them with the chance to let go of behavior thatclwas destructive. It humanizes these men.
It's a reminder of the way in which the arts can be a positive force.
Women have the power - they need to reject these man-boys and their toxic masculinity!