Glad you finger pointed at Ezra Klein rather than generalized about journalists like Klein (opinion writer for the NYT). He deserves some shaming as a false voice of liberals.
Your quotes from Robert Jones are perfect - not at the expense of our humanity.
My fix is to double down on civility when in public. Show them how it used to be done, how it is supposed to be done--not because they "deserve" it, but because humans developed etiquette and civility in order to live side by side and avoid wars. Neither will I back down, however, in the face of incivility. I call it out. It's a fine line, but as the I Ching counsels, never go more than halfway in meeting people. That equation works for me, and it shows the hateful folk that they can't win by stepping over the line.
I don’t find it difficult at all. If they don’t know me, and they hate me, they are mistaken in doing so, and I want to correct their mistake if possible, and that’s not possible without civility and engaging with them without hatred on my part. Trump is constantly telling them, “Democrats hate you and they hate America.” That is not true, and if I want to convince them it’s not true (which I do, because in a democracy their vote counts just as much as mine, and I want this to be a country that does NOT elect Trump or his ilk), I have to engage them with respect for their humanity. That’s not appeasement, that’s just practicality.
I am always civil and polite, but I can't say it ever really penetrates. This is classic cult behavior, and I'm very afraid that it's going to get much worse before it ever gets better. With most sources of information in the hands of oligarchs, we're at a critical disadvantage.
That's my point, too. I am civil with everyone until given a reason not to be, and then avoidance is my technique. I won't compromise with people in willful denial who don't believe we should all play by the same rules.
I couldn’t agree more with your last sentence, and it worries me very much.
That’s why we need to look for ways that may be counterintuitive and uncomfortable to try to change Trump voters’ minds, and why I don’t like to see Klein vilified for doing that. I think we need to distinguish between addressing Republican politicians and addressing MAGA voters. The politicians won’t be swayed by empathetic approaches — they know the facts perfectly well and are motivated simply by cowardice and self-interest. But many of the voters simply don’t encounter pro-Democratic facts or people in their daily lives. If we’re willing to dismount from our high horse and recognize that they may be well-intentioned people misled by Trump and their environment and their lack of factual knowledge, we might change some of their minds. And in a democracy it is definitely more in our interest to do so than to maintain that we won’t demean ourselves by talking to bigots as if they were people.
Sadly, our household has personal experience with sociopaths, and Trump's followers have been brainwashed by Fox News etc. into a cult state. I'm sorry to say that in my experience, logic and kindness and caring do not work with either of those entities. I'm not on a high horse--far from it. Any well-intentioned people can easily see the light for themselves. That's my contribution to respecting their intellect. Clearly, they are not yet listening. But they cannot escape seeing people who simply demonstrate civility and good faith. Keep up the good work, friend.
As a 75 year old white woman, I know a lot about privilege and a bit about discrimination. Thank you, Ms Young, for the succinct description of Ezra Klein's NYTimes column.
I don't plan to spend any more time reading Ezra Klein from now on. I began to question the value of his thinking with his "Abundance" theory but his Charlie Kirk comments and his interview with Coates seals his fate to bypass mode for me. Thanks for a great column.
Although I have not read the book (and I should have said Abundance Agenda, not theory) but what I've read about it is basically that the regulatory burden on housing construction, transportation, etc. is too great and that if we cut and water down building codes, environmental regulations, etc. that would greatly help solve our housing and other crises.
Is this an example of "but not at the cost of our environment"? How about prohibiting nonprivate entities from buying and flipping houses? How about not having so many kids? How about creating walkable communities instead of the behemoth houses in complexes that require driving to get to and fro, which I see popping up like acne in my area?
Well, those are just a couple of dumb ideas from a lifelong environmentalist and conservationist, so I guess Klein wouldn't consider any of that.
I was appalled when I read Klein's praise of Kirk in the NYT. We do not win by pandering to bigots. Whether or not we "like" each other, as humans we must all live together; if they cannot do that on a fundamental level, they are not invited to the national discussion.
Respect, on the other hand, must be earned, and Dems who accept people as they are or simply choose not to interact with bigots have done nothing to earn disrespect. It is on them to join us, and maybe they will, and maybe they won't, Ezra Klein. It will be their loss if they don't. I don't give a damn if they like me. I do strive to deserve respect. Thank you so much, Ms. Young, for furthering this conversation.
And when you do, in my experience many of them drink. I won’t claim the same is true of MAGAs, but some of them will drink. More than will get to water on their own.
Have at it. Their wrong perceptions come from following the wrong crowd. If they don't wish to follow my counterexample in treating everyone equally, they can figure it out on their own. Somehow, we did that for 200+ years. I'm not here to explain how to live and let live. I have a life to lead.
I hesitate to call Klein a liberal. Maybe pseudo-liberal or like one of those guys that Fox includes in some of their segments and shows to pretend they are doing a "balanced" presentation. The person may identify as a Democrat but they are usually far from liberal or, at best, too obsequious to be a true counter-point. I also wonder why WE are expected to show that we "like" them. Why don't they have some responsibility here?
Also, the fact is that I DON'T like them. Also MAGAland, like their emperor, is immune to logic and commonsense and common courtesy. So it wouldn't work anyway. And to those who like to point out that there are already cracks showing in their steadfastness I would say take a closer look. When MAGAts appear to be bucking Trumps actions it's usually because he's spending time focusing on some other nasty business instead of the nasty business THEY helped elect him to focus on.
In his first term I could almost understand why a disaffected person might vote for him- not a politician, outside the beltway, someone that might have fresh ideas. But we quickly learned who he was and many people regretted voting for him and so we voted him out. But then they voted him back in, which especially angers me because they turned me into someone I never wanted to be- a person with no compassion towards them, someone who truly hopes they will be seriously negatively impacted or somehow badly injured by the insane policies and actions they helped facilitate. And I want it to hurt for a very long time.
So let's wait until Dem's are back in power and have, hopefully, undone as much of Trump's destruction a possible before we even think about extending a very conditional olive branch.
Thank you so much for this beautifully written and lucidly argued column, which highlights the moral and intellectual rot of Klein's position exposed by Coates. The Robert Jones quote is perfect.
Democrats have treated the GOP as normal for far too long, when clearly they are not. Another word for compromise is appeasement. Neither work with people who bargain in bad faith and don't keep promises. These are not people to deal with at all. They are dishonorable, and one might as well negotiate with terrorists, which is pretty close to what these people really are. They are not in it for the American good.
Excellent commentary. Not being a fan of Klein, I confess not reading the discussion between him and Coates. I loved Coates powerful, honest, quick response to Klein wanting to be part of the discussion and public grieving, "I guess...was silence not an option.
The reason I don't follow Klein's pseudo-intellectual convoluted reasoning, is that when I have tried to do so I find myself wishing that he would have been silent.
Also, the pseudojournalistic "bothsidesing" has seeped into his pores in a way that makes the grease ooze out. Will never click on his self-important crap again.
Something about that Klein-Coates dialogue bothered me at the time. Thank you, Shalise; your article clearly explained something that irked me (I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was, but I should've been able to). I do remember commending Coates in a comment on his honesty and forthrightness. His views are essential, imo, to communicate historic truths (things about our country that some want to conveniently ignore, brush aside, or somehow absolve).
(FYI, I believe "humanity" is misspelled in your Jones quote.)
This is brilliant work. I’m exhausted by white “liberals” and “Christians” whitewashing racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia and xenophobia. These are not good people. Good people don’t vote to hurt others who are different. They don’t put the price of eggs above the price of humanity. White liberals can choose their whiteness first when they see past hatred. Praise for a hatemonger who talked over college students 10 years younger is ludicrous. I’m also in camp Coates — and on team Shalise.
I've often thought that Klein weaseled his way through a lot of arguments: superficially admiring and siding with justice and equality liberals, but harboring serious reservations about putting the words into action. Thanks for this very insightful column.
Deeply appreciated this column. Thank you.
Glad you finger pointed at Ezra Klein rather than generalized about journalists like Klein (opinion writer for the NYT). He deserves some shaming as a false voice of liberals.
Your quotes from Robert Jones are perfect - not at the expense of our humanity.
It's very difficult to like people who are so invested in hating you. Solve that and then maybe we can talk.
My fix is to double down on civility when in public. Show them how it used to be done, how it is supposed to be done--not because they "deserve" it, but because humans developed etiquette and civility in order to live side by side and avoid wars. Neither will I back down, however, in the face of incivility. I call it out. It's a fine line, but as the I Ching counsels, never go more than halfway in meeting people. That equation works for me, and it shows the hateful folk that they can't win by stepping over the line.
I particularly like the I Ching quote. I think that was why Ezra Klein blew it. Communication can work without crossing your own red line.
I don’t find it difficult at all. If they don’t know me, and they hate me, they are mistaken in doing so, and I want to correct their mistake if possible, and that’s not possible without civility and engaging with them without hatred on my part. Trump is constantly telling them, “Democrats hate you and they hate America.” That is not true, and if I want to convince them it’s not true (which I do, because in a democracy their vote counts just as much as mine, and I want this to be a country that does NOT elect Trump or his ilk), I have to engage them with respect for their humanity. That’s not appeasement, that’s just practicality.
I am always civil and polite, but I can't say it ever really penetrates. This is classic cult behavior, and I'm very afraid that it's going to get much worse before it ever gets better. With most sources of information in the hands of oligarchs, we're at a critical disadvantage.
That's my point, too. I am civil with everyone until given a reason not to be, and then avoidance is my technique. I won't compromise with people in willful denial who don't believe we should all play by the same rules.
I couldn’t agree more with your last sentence, and it worries me very much.
That’s why we need to look for ways that may be counterintuitive and uncomfortable to try to change Trump voters’ minds, and why I don’t like to see Klein vilified for doing that. I think we need to distinguish between addressing Republican politicians and addressing MAGA voters. The politicians won’t be swayed by empathetic approaches — they know the facts perfectly well and are motivated simply by cowardice and self-interest. But many of the voters simply don’t encounter pro-Democratic facts or people in their daily lives. If we’re willing to dismount from our high horse and recognize that they may be well-intentioned people misled by Trump and their environment and their lack of factual knowledge, we might change some of their minds. And in a democracy it is definitely more in our interest to do so than to maintain that we won’t demean ourselves by talking to bigots as if they were people.
Sadly, our household has personal experience with sociopaths, and Trump's followers have been brainwashed by Fox News etc. into a cult state. I'm sorry to say that in my experience, logic and kindness and caring do not work with either of those entities. I'm not on a high horse--far from it. Any well-intentioned people can easily see the light for themselves. That's my contribution to respecting their intellect. Clearly, they are not yet listening. But they cannot escape seeing people who simply demonstrate civility and good faith. Keep up the good work, friend.
As a 75 year old white woman, I know a lot about privilege and a bit about discrimination. Thank you, Ms Young, for the succinct description of Ezra Klein's NYTimes column.
I don't plan to spend any more time reading Ezra Klein from now on. I began to question the value of his thinking with his "Abundance" theory but his Charlie Kirk comments and his interview with Coates seals his fate to bypass mode for me. Thanks for a great column.
Gads, dare I ask what his abundance theory was?
Although I have not read the book (and I should have said Abundance Agenda, not theory) but what I've read about it is basically that the regulatory burden on housing construction, transportation, etc. is too great and that if we cut and water down building codes, environmental regulations, etc. that would greatly help solve our housing and other crises.
Is this an example of "but not at the cost of our environment"? How about prohibiting nonprivate entities from buying and flipping houses? How about not having so many kids? How about creating walkable communities instead of the behemoth houses in complexes that require driving to get to and fro, which I see popping up like acne in my area?
Well, those are just a couple of dumb ideas from a lifelong environmentalist and conservationist, so I guess Klein wouldn't consider any of that.
I was appalled when I read Klein's praise of Kirk in the NYT. We do not win by pandering to bigots. Whether or not we "like" each other, as humans we must all live together; if they cannot do that on a fundamental level, they are not invited to the national discussion.
Respect, on the other hand, must be earned, and Dems who accept people as they are or simply choose not to interact with bigots have done nothing to earn disrespect. It is on them to join us, and maybe they will, and maybe they won't, Ezra Klein. It will be their loss if they don't. I don't give a damn if they like me. I do strive to deserve respect. Thank you so much, Ms. Young, for furthering this conversation.
No, it will be OUR loss if they don’t join us. I have felt that loss keenly every day since last November.
You can lead a horse to water...
And when you do, in my experience many of them drink. I won’t claim the same is true of MAGAs, but some of them will drink. More than will get to water on their own.
Have at it. Their wrong perceptions come from following the wrong crowd. If they don't wish to follow my counterexample in treating everyone equally, they can figure it out on their own. Somehow, we did that for 200+ years. I'm not here to explain how to live and let live. I have a life to lead.
I hesitate to call Klein a liberal. Maybe pseudo-liberal or like one of those guys that Fox includes in some of their segments and shows to pretend they are doing a "balanced" presentation. The person may identify as a Democrat but they are usually far from liberal or, at best, too obsequious to be a true counter-point. I also wonder why WE are expected to show that we "like" them. Why don't they have some responsibility here?
Also, the fact is that I DON'T like them. Also MAGAland, like their emperor, is immune to logic and commonsense and common courtesy. So it wouldn't work anyway. And to those who like to point out that there are already cracks showing in their steadfastness I would say take a closer look. When MAGAts appear to be bucking Trumps actions it's usually because he's spending time focusing on some other nasty business instead of the nasty business THEY helped elect him to focus on.
In his first term I could almost understand why a disaffected person might vote for him- not a politician, outside the beltway, someone that might have fresh ideas. But we quickly learned who he was and many people regretted voting for him and so we voted him out. But then they voted him back in, which especially angers me because they turned me into someone I never wanted to be- a person with no compassion towards them, someone who truly hopes they will be seriously negatively impacted or somehow badly injured by the insane policies and actions they helped facilitate. And I want it to hurt for a very long time.
So let's wait until Dem's are back in power and have, hopefully, undone as much of Trump's destruction a possible before we even think about extending a very conditional olive branch.
Coates knows history & speaks to it, while Klein doesn’t. A really perceptive article & criticism of Klein.
Thank you so much for this beautifully written and lucidly argued column, which highlights the moral and intellectual rot of Klein's position exposed by Coates. The Robert Jones quote is perfect.
Democrats have treated the GOP as normal for far too long, when clearly they are not. Another word for compromise is appeasement. Neither work with people who bargain in bad faith and don't keep promises. These are not people to deal with at all. They are dishonorable, and one might as well negotiate with terrorists, which is pretty close to what these people really are. They are not in it for the American good.
Excellent comment!
Excellent commentary. Not being a fan of Klein, I confess not reading the discussion between him and Coates. I loved Coates powerful, honest, quick response to Klein wanting to be part of the discussion and public grieving, "I guess...was silence not an option.
The reason I don't follow Klein's pseudo-intellectual convoluted reasoning, is that when I have tried to do so I find myself wishing that he would have been silent.
Also, the pseudojournalistic "bothsidesing" has seeped into his pores in a way that makes the grease ooze out. Will never click on his self-important crap again.
Klein is so off the mark it's shocking. No longer on my list of respected thinkers.
Yay! Really great column. Not at the expense of anyone's humanity.
Something about that Klein-Coates dialogue bothered me at the time. Thank you, Shalise; your article clearly explained something that irked me (I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was, but I should've been able to). I do remember commending Coates in a comment on his honesty and forthrightness. His views are essential, imo, to communicate historic truths (things about our country that some want to conveniently ignore, brush aside, or somehow absolve).
(FYI, I believe "humanity" is misspelled in your Jones quote.)
It's spelled correctly.
The “y” was missing when I commented. But thanks.
Oops. Didn't think of a correction.
This is brilliant work. I’m exhausted by white “liberals” and “Christians” whitewashing racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia and xenophobia. These are not good people. Good people don’t vote to hurt others who are different. They don’t put the price of eggs above the price of humanity. White liberals can choose their whiteness first when they see past hatred. Praise for a hatemonger who talked over college students 10 years younger is ludicrous. I’m also in camp Coates — and on team Shalise.
I've often thought that Klein weaseled his way through a lot of arguments: superficially admiring and siding with justice and equality liberals, but harboring serious reservations about putting the words into action. Thanks for this very insightful column.
In the South, so much racism is glossed over by white liberals saying these are “nice people.” No, they are not.
I wish they'd quit that "bless your heart" dodge.