The results of last night’s midterm elections ushered in some much-needed democratic revelry — and Democrats are already focused on hitting the ground running in January. Voters anxiously await answers to the question: “What comes next?”
Ezra Levin, Co-Executive Director of Indivisible, joins Jen to debrief the midterm results and look ahead to the 120th Congress. They spotlight the role of organized people power in rebuilding broken political institutions. Emphasizing the work of global democracy movements, Levin underscores how sustained group pressure destroys authoritarianism.
Ezra Levin is the co-founder and co-executive director of Indivisible.
The following transcript has been edited for formatting purposes.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor in Chief for the Contrarian. I am with the man of the hour, one of the men of the hour, Ezra Levin from Indivisible. Welcome, Ezra.
Ezra Levin
Oh, Jen, there are so many. I feel like such a small little part of this, and so proud and honored to be part of a movement of millions of people who refuse to give in to the elite consensus that we should be cynical or nihilistic or fatalistic about giving in to an authoritarian, and instead they built their own consensus. They organized on the ground month in, month out, 13,000 protests and get-out-the-vote events all across the country. and they toppled a would-be king. So I’m… I’m just… I’m walking on… walking on air right now, just so.
Jen Rubin
Isn’t that amazing? When you think back to the months right after. Trump was elected. There were people saying, no, we should work with them. Find common ground. Doge has some good ideas, they said. You and people out there on the streets felt differently. How soon did you realize that you had tapped into something that was really extraordinary, that was going to carry us through this period?
Ezra Levin
Almost immediately, Jen. And I will say, before I had felt the energy, I knew that we don’t just simply give in to a would-be authoritarian and go along with what he wants to do. It’s actually our responsibility as patriotic Americans to organize against that, and to… the idea that after Donald Trump gets in with Project 2025 in his back pocket, with Republicans lined up behind that you would seek to make deals with this guy, that you wouldn’t throw yourself onto the machine and do everything you could to resist. It didn’t even occur to me. We campaigned against this guy like he was American Mussolini, and that’s not just me, that’s the way Chuck Schumer campaigned against him. That’s the way Senate and House leadership campaigned against him. And the idea that you would turn around and say, well, obviously he’s got all the power now, let’s see how we can make deals. was bizarre, frankly. It seemed like not just a morally reprehensible position, it seemed politically maladapted to the moment. If your only goal was to fracture the Republican coalition, why on earth would you be handing him favors during the next two years? But when we, you know, we left… Leah and I, myself and I, the co-executive director of Indivisible, we left my kids with my mom, and we went to a cabin in West Virginia, and we wrote the new Indivisible Guide, which basically said, we can say no, we can limit the harm, we can fight back, and we can fight to protect elections and win a midterm election to build a majority coalition. And… the response to that guide was astronomical. We had 50,000 people on a Zoom to talk about a Google document, and we quadrupled in size as a movement in the months to come because people were hungry to be part of something big, to be part of the fight for democracy. They did not want to surrender. So it was evident to me long before no kings long before hands-off, that the public wasn’t going to go along with this. Yes, maybe elites in the Democratic Party, or in media, or in business, or in law firms, they might go along with it, but the public wasn’t there. They wanted to fight back, and they have been for the last two years. I do think the story of the last two years is the story of normal, everyday Americans organizing themselves against an authoritarian breakthrough moment as elites collapse. And it’s important we understand that story, because it tells us what should come next.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and we’re gonna get there. Let me just drill down on something you just said. People wanted to come together. I think we’ve gotten so far, because everyone’s online and works remotely, in forgetting that personal connection. You tapped into something that was so emotional, so human, in putting people together in public places. Talk to us about that, and what you saw, the difference it made in people’s lives.
Ezra Levin
One of the more inspiring things I read immediately after the election in 24 was an interview with Timothy Snyder, one of these great experts on authoritarianism, and he said, I’m paraphrasing now. The authoritarians want you to feel alone. They want you to feel isolated. And it’s very, very important. If you don’t do anything else, don’t give that to them. Refuse to be alone. Refuse to be alienated from your fellow American. Reach out and build community. I think it’s underappreciated, that role. This is not a movement of isolated individuals posting online or signing petitions or something like that. There are people… physically gathering together every Saturday in a library, or joining together to go to their congressional office, or joining together for a hands-off protest, or a No Kings protest, or a Get Out the Vote event. I do think we, as a society, are… are over-investing in these online platforms that are disproportionately owned by tech zillionaires who have made.
Jen Rubin
Yeah.
Ezra Levin
with authoritarian regimes, and are at risk of losing something that makes democracy function, which is normal people coming together and building community with each other. It doesn’t even have to be political, Jen. I mean, we see people forming book clubs in Indivisible groups, or having mutual aid societies form out of these indivisible groups. And that’s healthy and good. It doesn’t have to be, I’m railing against Trump, or I’m gonna try to elect a Democrat. We need people talking to each other, gathering together. From that, you ladder up to a functioning democratic society. And I think one of the worst things that could happen going forward is for a movement that produced this outcome to say, okay, we did it, the Democrats won, now we can go home. We need this to build. We need more of these communities to join, whether it’s with Indivisible, or Black Voters Matter, or 5051, whatever your community is, it’s more important now than ever to find and build that community.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. One of the things we saw is that and I say this over and over again to our Contrarian family. You don’t lead from the top. All important movement, all important developments in American history as society are bottom-up.
Ezra Levin
Yeah.
Jen Rubin
They follow, they don’t lead. Talk to us about the process of gradually training elected leaders to do the right thing.
Ezra Levin
It’s not a switch that gets flipped, Jen. That is not how this works. The system is made to withstand one immediate burst of energy or one immediate ask. And so, one of the reasons why it’s very important at Indivisible that our unit of activism is the group rather than the individual, is because groups sustain. Groups can continue. Groups can continue to apply pressure, can build up leadership, can form relationships with electeds or with candidates and push them over the long haul. It’s not going to be the case that you win one ultimate victory, including electing your favorite person to office, if you don’t then show up at their door when they’re sworn in, and then the next month, and then the next month. Other people, other institutions, other donors, other political consultants, they will be showing up. And so you have to act as that pro-democracy countervailing force. So what we really train people to do is to understand, not that you get the best people in office and all this hunky-dory, but actually, you have power as an organized group, because the way the democracy in America is structured is as a democratic republic, all power flows from the people up to elected. City council, state legislative, governor, representative, president, it all comes down to you, but you as an individual, you don’t have very much power. That’s just the reality. It’s a numbers game. You as an organized community in your geographic location that has represent vision, you bet your butt you’ve got power. You just gotta organize it and continue applying pressure.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. So, now what is on everyone’s mind is, what comes next?
Ezra Levin
Yeah.
Jen Rubin
First of all, how does Indivisible decide what comes next, and what do you think the next few weeks, few months, are gonna look like?
Ezra Levin
In an hour, I’ve got my first meeting with thousands of Indivisible group leaders from all around the country. This will be our first debrief meeting where we discuss what exactly just happened, and what, indeed, are we doing next. We’re nerds, okay, Jen? We like to plan. We like to get in the details, we like to get into the process, because that’s how you actually affect changes, to know what are the tools available to you. So I think we’ve got to start by understanding that we live in a new political world now. And that wasn’t necessarily going to happen. It’s not accurate to describe Tuesday as a Democratic win, although it was. Yes, we won the House. Yes, we won the Senate. Yes, we’re on track to win somewhere between 600 and 800 state legislative seats. That is indeed a win, but that undersells what it is. I think this is a generational election. I think this actually ends the Trump era and presents the opportunity to create a new era, which means all of those smart politicos out there who are used to listening to their consultants or their pollsters or their donors to understand what is practical in this political world, what are the contours of what can be accomplished. That’s out the window. When you see Democrats flip South Carolina, when you see them get every single statewide election in Texas, when you see us on the verge of taking a Mississippi Senate seat, the old way of politics, that’s not right anymore. So you’ve got all these politicos around the country who are unsteady. They don’t know what is possible. That’s where movement comes in. We can define this new era while we have the momentum, and we can’t do that forever. We’ve got to do that in the coming days and weeks to say, this is what is expected. This was the No Kings election. The No Kings movement is expecting to treat this regime as a threat to democracy, and expecting this incoming Congress to actually deliver for the American people and create a contrast with the authoritarians out there. I think that’s possible. It’s exciting because it is a new political reality, but we cannot just assume it will happen because of what happened Tuesday. We have to actually make it happen.
Jen Rubin
Folks can be the king and queen of False binary choices. We can do oversight, or we can have an agenda. We can appeal to moderates, or we can appeal to progressives, we can appeal to Hispanics, or we can appeal to the business community. Why is that the wrong kind of thinking?
Ezra Levin
It’s an outdated version of politics that I understand And that I learned about it, and that I grew up in when I was young, that there is a left-right ideological spectrum, and that’s how you define what politics is. That is not what is deciding the big questions in politics today. The question today in politics is, are you a fascist, are you an authoritarian, or are you in favor of democracy? And by democracy, I don’t just mean the right to vote. I don’t just mean the simple constitutional rights, I mean Do you believe that concentrated political and economic power is a threat to all of our well-being? I think that the new Democratic governor of Texas put it very well, that she considers herself an economic populist who is responding to the threat of big tech and big concentrated interest, and she’s for the people. And she’s not interested in these left-right spectrum frameworks, not interested in these culture war issues, she’s interested in improving people’s lives. And I do think there’s a jumbling of politics that is occurring right now, and that is a big opportunity for those Political entrepreneurs who want to seize that moment, and there are a lot of them who just won election.
Jen Rubin
It’s very interesting. Speaking to one of our reporters who does a lot in rural America, she was saying, you know, people are as mad at Trump as they are at big ag.
Ezra Levin
Yeah.
Jen Rubin
And I thought that was such a telling comment, because it’s really about the concentration and abuse of power.
Ezra Levin
Yes.
Jen Rubin
Talk to us about… How the people go after that. And really reclaim their democracy, reclaim their ownership of all kinds of levers of power.
Ezra Levin
This, again, comes down to organizing. These corporations are big and powerful, and many of us use their products or their platforms, and that is a threat. That is a threat to what we are trying to achieve, which is a basic democratic society that responds to the will of the people. We saw this during No King’s vote earlier.
Jen Rubin
We have…
Ezra Levin
Had the largest early vote in American history. In the middle of it, Meta, Mark Zuckerberg’s Meta, shut down the No Kings Instagram for 4 hours. But it’s not just us, and it’s not just that. We saw Elon Musk spend half a billion dollars trying to purchase politicians this year, and that was after he was welcomed into the executive branch to run roughshod over the entire federal government. This is something that we as a society need to take on, but it can’t be done by individuals or individual organizations or even movement. You need government to recognize this as a threat and say, that isn’t helping our society, that isn’t helping people. We are not just going to hold them accountable for the sake of holding them accountable, that’s not the point. We need rule of law in this country, and we need a government that provides for the people. It’s as simple as that. So do you want a trillionaire in this country who has a, at best, tenuous connection to humanity? Or do you want to have the ability to send your kid to college? Do you want the ability to trust that you can get healthcare if you get sick? It should be a pretty easy political decision. The problem with our political system is just how infected it is by big money and the big lobbying operations of these big industries, which is why I think somebody like Gina Inehosa and many of the others who got elected this past election are so exciting because they present a new framework for tackling this major change for democracy. It’s not the traditional left-right, it’s big, powerful industries versus everybody else. And that’s a framework that we can use in the next two years to build not just a slim win, but to set ourselves up for a trifecta in 2029 that actually ushers in an era of accountability and reform. And I do believe the next two years of national politics should be purely focused on setting ourselves up for that.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. My fear, and I’ll be honest with you, is that Ambitions are too small. Yeah. Well, we should have an ethics code for the Supreme Court. No, we need a new Supreme Court!
Ezra Levin
Yeah.
Jen Rubin
Well, we should have better drawn districts. Well, maybe we should have proportional representation in this country. Talk to us about getting people to think big, to break the mold, not to be confined by these little ideas.
Ezra Levin
Well, one of the problems that we’re faced with is the smallness of what can get through the current version of Congress. We gotta be honest, Jen. The Senate is broken. It is a broken institution. It is not the greatest deliberative body in the world. It’s not a deliberative body. It serves the interest of a tiny minority that stops basically any kind of good ideas from coming out, in that in the false name of bipartisanship, but actually, it just cedes power to the Supreme Court, which then makes laws from the bench. We need a Congress that actually functions, that actually legislates! Imagine that! But you can’t have that if you’re beholden to 19th century technical loopholes that we’re still stuck with for some unknown reason. So, I know this can get a bit technical, but you’re not going to have big ideas if you’ve got to deal with the filibuster. I would say anybody vying for Senate Majority Leader, as we know Chuck Schumer is, should commit on day one, on January 3rd, when you adopt a new rules package, to eliminate the filibuster. Because you are not going to get any big ideas, whether it’s proportional representation, whether it’s an ethics bill, whether it’s an anti-corruption bill, whether it’s a housing bill or a healthcare bill, you’re not even going to get a debate on it, because the Republicans won’t allow you to do that. Now, I think there is some fear that if we can legislate, the other side will be able to legislate bad things. And you know what, Jen? That’s democracy! You should not be so scared of democracy that you’re willing to break it to save yourself from what the other folks will do. Put your good ideas forward, force the Republicans to fight against them, implement them, and let the people decide if what you’ve provided them is good. We need a connection between people’s votes and the outcomes in the legislative process, and currently we don’t have that. If you want big ideas, create a functioning legislative process. The good news is. We have the ability to do that now! We’re heading in with 55 or 56 votes in the Senate. Many of those folks campaigned on not wanting Chuck Schumer for leadership, and even if they didn’t name him by name, all of them campaigned on bringing a new type of politics to Washington. You ain’t gonna get that new type of politics if you’re playing by the old rules.
Jen Rubin
And let’s not forget about state legislatures and governors who have the ability to rewrite the rules for presidential elections, for popular vote. Yes. Big ideas, folks.
Ezra Levin
Now, can I just underline? Yes, I think it’s It’s underappreciated. Thank you for bringing it up.
Jen Rubin
Yes.
Ezra Levin
We’ve been talking about the national popular vote compact for a while, and it’s never been possible because we haven’t had the state legislatures and the governorship in enough states representing enough electoral votes. Jin, that’s over! That’s changed! If the Democrats in control of existing states now heading into January want to, they can effectively eliminate the Electoral College. through legislative process. That is what’s on the table right now. And why not, Jen? Why not? Why would you not improve our democratic system?
Jen Rubin
And let me just point you, folks, to Mississippi. Why shouldn’t those black voters in Mississippi have just as much to say about who’s gonna be president as some small business guy in New Hampshire, who gets a disproportionate amount of attention because of the state he’s in.
Ezra Levin
1000%.
Jen Rubin
Let me end on this, Ezra. This has been a worldwide phenomenon. We saw it in Brazil. We saw it in Serbia. Saw it in Hungary.
Ezra Levin
Yes.
Jen Rubin
Talk to us about the universality of the democratic spirit. I get chills just thinking about it, but it’s not just. American. There is something innate in free peoples that they will resist oppression, they will resist fear. Talk about what that’s been like for you to kind of connect with that zeitgeist. Around the globe.
Ezra Levin
Oh, gosh, Jen, I’m getting chills with you just talking about that. This is new for me. The first several years of Indivisible, I was a big American exceptionalist. I thought I knew our political system, and I worked within it. I didn’t view us as particularly part of a global struggle against authoritarianism, but I spent a lot more time talking with pro-democracy leaders in Slovenia and Poland and Argentina and Brazil and Hungary and elsewhere. And it’s very clear that in the 21st century, the political challenge is, how do you make democracy work in this era?
Jen Rubin
Yeah.
Ezra Levin
How do you make it work? And we’re all wrestling with the same problem, and we’re seeing some bright, bright… optimistic signs this year. As you mentioned, six or so months ago, Hungary showed us the way, running a campaign of anti-corruption and anti-economic concentration against Orban, the model for Trump, and then we saw it in Brazil rejecting authoritarianism there, and we saw it in Serbia. I am… what I’m seeing is that there is an opportunity to organize people against this malevolent strain of authoritarianism, but just because you succeed in bringing a coalition of no together and beat the authoritarians does not mean automatically democracy is safe. We have seen backsliding in some countries as well. In Slovenia, most recently, where the right-wingers have indeed come back into power, we’re seeing troubling signs in France, we’re seeing troubling signs in Germany. These are countries that have social safety nets and political systems that are, frankly, far more advanced than the U.S. is, far more advanced than the reforms that are on the table. I think one of the commonalities between all of these countries facing a threat to their democracy is that they have a malevolent, concentrated, authoritarian tech sector that is systematically isolating and alienating people from each other. I don’t think the threat of an Elon Musk type is just in the U.S. I don’t think the threat of somebody like Mark Zucker or with Meta is just in the U.S. We need to connect as human beings together, and build community together, and to the extent there are zillion dollar companies that profit off of alienating us from each other, and doomscrolling ourselves to oblivion, that isn’t just a problem with that corporation, that’s a problem for society that we need to tackle, and it’s a problem that’s true in Poland, and in Hungary, and in the United States, and in Mexico, and everywhere else. I think one of the major fights that we didn’t honestly identify two years ago was this unholy alliance between the right-wing tech sector and the right-wing authoritarians, but I think that threat is not over. It is not done. It has not been fully defeated, and I think it is one of the main challenges that we, in the U.S. and collectively, in humanity, ought to be taking on. In the next couple of years.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and this is why I’m such a big Elizabeth Warren fan. She has seen this, she has seen the power and the importance of breaking up big, concentrated wealth. Yes. Ezra from… you should take a… An hour off, take a half-hour break, and then get back to work. It has been a huge struggle, but we’re just beginning. So everyone should… Celebrate, refresh. Get back in the fight. Now the fun part starts. We get to start doing stuff. We get to start accomplishing things. So… You got plans today? What are you looking forward to for the weekend and into next week?
Ezra Levin
Well, look, here, we’re… I’m meeting with Indivisible group leaders around the country in just under an hour. In… at… at 3 o’clock Eastern Time on Thursday, we’re having our first What’s the Plan, our weekly call with the movement.
Jen Rubin
Fabulous.
Ezra Levin
I would encourage folks to come. We are going to be debriefing the election, but we are going to be talking about what’s to come. And I do think this is… this is the No Kings election. There should be no coronation of Trump or of any other political figure. I know that Chuck Schumer is out there claiming that he is just going to be elected Senate Majority Leader. I think he’s projecting confidence. I think the ground is shifted underneath him as well, and if that’s not an outcome you want to see happen. you have a role to play right now. You should be organizing, and you should be asserting that we are the ones who built this wave, and we should have a say in the direction of the Democratic Party and the country going forward. So, hope people join us on Thursday, but this is gonna be fun, Jen.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what, folks? They’re never going to listen to you as carefully as they are right now, because they were just collected. That’s right. Because memories fade over time. So get in their faces now. Thank you, Ezra. It’s always great to talk to you. You refresh our souls, you lift our spirits. Take care. Congratulations to you and everyone at Indivisible. We love you guys. Take care.
Ezra Levin
Love y’all, too. Bye-bye.
