The “charity” era of women’s sports is officially dead (if it was ever alive). The WNBA has struck a landmark deal to spike the salary floor, acknowledging the booming success of these teams.
Pablo Torre joins Jen to break down this deal. The two also discuss the NIL money that is killing the mid-major underdog, the “unkillable” coaching tenure of Rick Pitino, and the rise of athletic dynasties in tennis.
Pablo Torre is an American sportswriter, podcaster, and television host. He contributes to various programs at ESPN, including Pardon The Interruption and Around The Horn. Keep up with Pablo on his Substack and podcast Pablo Torre Finds Out .
The following transcript has been edited for formatting purposes.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief at The Contrarian. If it’s Monday, it must be Pablo Torre. Hi, Pablo!
Pablo Torre
Jen, good to be back with you, as always.
Jen Rubin
It is lovely. After one of the busiest sports weeks of the year, and that’s going to continue on, for sports junkies, there’s tennis, there’s golf, there’s men’s basketball, women’s basketball, professional basketball, you name it, it’s there. So, let’s talk about women’s professional basketball. This time last year, there was a lot of concern there was going to be a strike, that the contract, the labor contract, was coming up. They reached a deal, which is pretty extraordinary. What’s your take on it?
Pablo Torre
Yeah, this was something that was threatening to go off the rails, and I say that because inside of the NFL… excuse me, I almost said NFLPA, other labor, strife that I was previously reporting on, inside of the W… and BPA, there was also strife. There was this disagreement fundamentally, around how much can you extract from owners at this time of unprecedented growth, right? So the… the WNBA as a league had always been sort of, like, hiding inside of the NBA’s CBA and their own labor agreements and rights deals, and that’s really the thing that… was, kind of a favor to a league that was not yet standing on its own two feet, but now, at this advent, I mean, really, this peak moment in women’s sports, you had this notion of. Why and how are we holding ourselves back when we finally have leverage? And so, this deal, I would say, is not extreme on the level of, wow, the Players Union really got the NBA or the WNBA owners to give them everything they want, but it got enough to prove that they’re serious. And that’s sort of the win here, when you look at it, it’s multiples more in terms of the salary cap, in terms of max salaries, in terms of the wage scale, than had existed before. Now, because they were so low before, like Caitlin Clark, as we were fond of saying, was making $70,000 as the number one overall pick, as a matter of salary, there was so much Headroom in terms of getting to that, ostensible ceiling. So it was always gonna be multiples more, but this, I think, is a deal that, frankly, both sides should be happy with, and it’s a deal that will serve as the new floor for the next one, in which you begin to extract what is that gap, Jen, which we’ve talked about as well, which is team valuations. Right? The theory of, this is what a team is worth on the open market, which in the case of the WNBA, you know, we’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars already, versus what are the players able to realize from that financial pie today, which is, you know, several million dollars now, annually, which is the top line of that salary cap. So, it’s a good deal, it’s just… The beginning, really.
Jen Rubin
It’s unusual in that it did two things simultaneously. Usually there’s a trade-off between players at the entry level at the bottom and the top stores, but this did something for each of them. It raised the bottom, but it also kind of opened up the top. That was a pretty extraordinary, bit of negotiating there.
Pablo Torre
Yeah, and this is always an issue with sports unions, is you have a constituency that is not all one class, right? You have the superstars, who have the most, sort of, leverage-generating powers, because they create headlines, because they’re the only players that, sort of, the common fan recognizes, and then you have the rank and file. And in the WNBA, what’s interesting is that everybody was fundamentally the rank and file, you know? And so everybody sort of recognized, if we want to be considered and taken seriously, then… We sort of need our superstars to be treated as such, because without that. we really are like ants on a log that can be squished by… by ownership. And so you’re right, it’s rare to see both parts of the hierarchy achieve gains like this, because typically it’s one or the other has given up Really, the other side of the ledger to get their progress.
Jen Rubin
There is something also to be said that having been recognized in this way, and having more disposable income. It’ll help the celebrity aspect of it. You’re gonna see more bling, you’re gonna see more, kind of individual stars. There’s kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy about all of this, which is good for women’s sports. You see what it’s done in tennis, you see what it’s done in other sports. So, I imagine that we’re gonna see a little bit more pizzazz, maybe?
Pablo Torre
Well, it’s something that the marketing companies have already been all over, you know? Yeah. Because they are not constrained by salary caps, and so just some of the basic math here is that the salary cap now in the WNBA will be starting at $7 million. It was $1.5 million in 2025, the Supermax. again, that highest class of player, their salaries are starting at $1.4 million. They were under $250,000 this past season. And the average is gonna be… a little over half a million dollars, it was $120,000, and then the minimum has more tiers that have all sort of, like, increased as well. So yeah, I think that you’re seeing, and this is the big win, really, for women’s sports writ large, is… This is not a charity. Like, this is a good business! The leaps that are enabled here, are on the backs of viewership. They’re on the backs of real people taking an interest in this sport. There was always the social cause sort of thesis of women’s sports. Yes. But to your point, like, when marketing money comes in, it’s because they think they can make money by spending money. And the players, the labor here, that’s the fulcrum of that exposure.
Jen Rubin
Exactly. And I think one of the things that is so interesting here is that, at least at the initial stage, having Had women’s sports recognized, in this fashion, and having the viewership increase, that we’re on now a different trajectory than we were. It’s also, I think, gonna be the case that there was this imbalance between professional and college women’s basketball. They made more money in college because of the NIL money. Do you think this is going to make it a little bit more like the NBA, where you’ll have women coming out of college to get into the pros to get the money, or do you think… That’s down the road.
Pablo Torre
I think it’s certainly heading in that direction. I don’t know if we’re there just yet, because the college game… is, as you describe it, such a good business for those athletes. But what this is, I mean, so the larger question is triggered by that point, which is why did owners decide to give to this extent? And it’s because they know that, directionally, this is where it’s all headed. So you can try and ring out, for as long as you can, every cent. From the whole dynamic of, like, yes, you guys are worth a lot in theory, in terms of valuations, but in real terms, we’re not there yet, or you can agree that we’re all gonna be back at this table. In several years, and what we don’t want is to derail this entire thing, because, and this is the promise, I suppose, of capitalism and sports, is that When there is an actual business and lots and lots of money sloshing around. you should be able to… to reach a win-win scenario.
Jen Rubin
Exactly.
Pablo Torre
Historically, though, the owners have been blowing out labor unions for the entirety of it, but it does not have to be that way. You can actually resemble something like a mutually beneficial agreement in which everybody gets really rich, and I think that’s… Correctionally where this is headed.
Jen Rubin
And isn’t that, like, the aim of, all businesses and labor.
Pablo Torre
Of our market, of our country, even. Yes.
Jen Rubin
We are in the tournament season. We’re down to the Sweet 16 on both sides. I don’t know about you, my bracket is a complete mess, given the fact that St. John won.
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
Jen Rubin
won. What are the biggest surprises for you on the men’s side and on the women’s side?
Pablo Torre
So, the biggest surprise should not be classified as a surprise anymore, but it really did resemble the number one story to me, which is that we’ve now had two straight years with zero mid-majors in the Sweet 16. And so, the Cinderella era, on the men’s side, the Cinderella era, is… seemingly dead. And the reason why, like, why isn’t there a George Mason? Why isn’t there VC? Why isn’t there a Princeton? Why isn’t there any of the sort of great stories? Northern Iowa? Why aren’t they happening anymore? It’s because the throughline of our conversation recurs, because the market is… redistributing its money. So if you’re… and I was watching Florida, which just got knocked out, by the way, I just was watching Florida, and Florida is starting this kid, Xavian Lee, from Princeton. And… Xavian Lee entered the transfer portal, and so decided to spend his senior year at the University of Florida instead of Princeton, which has never happened before, in large part because, apparently, Florida was offering him millions upon millions of dollars in NIL money. And so, whoever your local hero was at a Cinderella, a would-be Cinderella, they transferred and went to one of the bigger schools, right? And so that’s where the talent redistribution has hurt, I think, the glory of the product. The other thing that really did emerge to me was, just like you mentioned St. John’s, Rick Pitino is effectively unkillable. Like, that dude, has…
Jen Rubin
Oh, no, yeah.
Pablo Torre
He has a trail of absurd scandal dating back decades that I’ve covered on my show as well, and… he wears, at times, these white suits, and he seems unstained, right? Like, he’s just… he’s so good a coach. that there is this halo effect over what is one of the craziest scandal-ridden resumes in all of college sports history. So, in that regard, again, maybe those are both two inevitabilities, but they struck me as I was watching them this weekend as, like, my god, these are both happening at the same time.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. And only in the college basketball tournament would anyone transfer from Princeton to Florida, but that’s a different story.
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
Jen Rubin
Yeah, that’s… sports is different than academics.
Pablo Torre
Exactly right.
Jen Rubin
On the women’s side, what are you looking at? Some really extraordinary performances.
Pablo Torre
Oh, yeah, I mean, look, it’s just funny. So, who are the powers in women’s basketball? You think of UConn? Yep, still there. Still a one seed. You think of South Carolina, yup, still there, still a one seed. USC? has some fantastic young talent, even without, you know, Juju Watkins, who’s still recovering from injury. So, for me, yeah, like, I’m looking at the bracket right now, and both of my brackets have utterly collapsed, it’s safe to say, but… Yeah, I, I… if you’re asking me… who’s gonna win the women’s tournament? I would say that betting on UConn or South Carolina is pretty much one of the safest strategies you can do.
Jen Rubin
Yes.
Pablo Torre
as a non-betting person. And so, I marvel at just the institutions that have basically dominated the sport forever.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, absolutely. Let me switch gears to tennis. The men’s and women’s professional tennis are in Miami, for a 1,000 tournament. There are the Grand Slam tournaments, the 1000, meaning you get 1,000 points in the Year-long competition, then they’re 500 and even $250. I watched on Sunday, I was lucky enough to be there, one of the most extraordinary matches I’ve ever seen, and that was Alcaraz losing to kind of a journeyman, who’s been around, never really kind of attained his billing. Sebastian Korda. It’s a great story, because Corda’s father was a great player, too. Came out of the communist, at that point, Czechoslovakia, very much beloved. And he is a guy who is a very elegant player. When you watch his groundstrokes, it’s beautiful to watch. He served out of his mind. But something phenomenal happened that was, you rarely see in sports. He completely dominated in the first set. Clearly, Alcaraz was off his game. You saw flashes of his brilliance, and sometimes he makes shots, and you think. how does he even do this? His ability to turn a defensive lob into an offensive weapon is unparalleled. So, but he was not having a good day. Got through most of the second set, and then serving for the match. Corda, you know, had a moment. He lost his serve, he lost the set. Now, the traditional trajectory of this thing is, okay, he’s done now, the champ comes back, it’s gonna be 6-2 in the third. We kind of looked at each other and said, okay, this is over. He did something that was extraordinary, and he said afterwards, I just played average, which is a great way of looking at it. He just hung in there. He just got his footing back. He didn’t try over-hitting. He didn’t try going for the winners. And slowly, slowly, he got his act back together. He served phenomenally throughout. And he won the third set. And I have to say. the crowd was stunned. It was a mixture of elation, just because we had watched this fabulous, exciting match. And just shocked. And, you know, you look at all of these headlines, and, you know, what’s wrong with Alvarez? He lost to Medvedev, now he’s lost to Miami. These guys are all… I mean, the difference between these people is like this. And when you have a top 10 person against a top 40 person, and the top 10 person is a little bit off the game. they’re not immune. And you saw the same thing in a match on the women’s side, Haley Batiste, who’s an up-and-comer, who’s never again really reached her, high point on beating Svitalina. If the… Person at the top is not completely on our game. The difference is so minuscule between these players. And I have to say, as someone who loves the game, who at one point played, you know, like, just recreational. The skill level is so stunning.
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
Jen Rubin
It’s so stunning. You don’t realize that when you’re watching on television, that it is just remarkable. And there’s so many of them. There’s this guy, and that girl, and this guy. And I think tennis is in a great space right now. They have figured out how to make not only this big star is big, but to cultivate, you know, a following. And what struck me is how international it is. You have people, you know, from Brazil rooting for Fonseco. You have people from Spain rooting for Alcaraz. It’s a very international crowd. And as you know, there’s just something thrilling about being there and seeing the… Best of the best. It was really a wonderful weekend, great matches all around, whole flock of younger Americans coming up the ranks on the men’s side, as well as the women’s side. What’s your take on when a… big star, and he’s… to say a big star underestimates Alcarazz. He’s clearly a generational talent. He stumbles a little bit. So what’s the mental process that then goes on about resetting and repairing? Obviously, an average player would just, like, crumble. That’s when you see these people slide. You kind of know he’s not, but how do they do that? How do they, like, regain their resilience and their oomph?
Pablo Torre
Yeah, the thing about Alcarazz that’s so funny is that he’s always… kind of cheery, you know?
Jen Rubin
Yes!
Pablo Torre
It’s one of the things that I really admire, is that… in a world in which I assume young people feel like they are collapsing under the weight of scrutiny from their classmates, from their cell phone, from social media. He seems to be able to compartmentalize or put perspective on something like this. Yes. And he, you know, I was just looking at what he had just posted afterwards, and again, you know, posting on social media, mileage varies, but on the performance aspect of it, but this feels true to him, you know, it’s a lot of exclamation points, a lot of of emojis and a lot of, it’s time to recharge the batteries and prepare for clay, which is where you’ll see him, I think, again, at the peak of his powers, in true Spanish fashion. But the other thing that is worth remarking upon here is that his dominance, in this era is not because the competition is bad, it’s the.
Jen Rubin
Because he’s.
Pablo Torre
just that good. And so, to see… and this is the other sort of, like, pet theory of our time that I have in sports, which is simply, we’re gonna be watching Soon enough, a professional sports landscape that is entirely populated by the children of former professional.
Jen Rubin
Yes.
Pablo Torre
And so, you know, one of the things that emerged over the weekend with this was the fact that Korda’s father, Peter Korda, had upset, in 1997, Sampras, who himself wasn’t number one at that time. And so, anyway, it’s merely just, like. the guy you think is this random dude, and he is, by all accounts, to me, effectively a random dude. It’s like, oh, wait a minute, he’s also that guy’s son, and also he’s still, like, an incredible tennis player at times, like… Yeah, that’s why it’s so impressive to see runs of.
Jen Rubin
His sister! And his sister is a world-class golfer. She…
Pablo Torre
Oh, that’s right, yes!
Jen Rubin
I’m in the golf tournament, Kelly, yes, so it’s.
Pablo Torre
Nellie Korda, yes, yes, yes. Oh, I forgot about that, yeah.
Jen Rubin
extraordinary sports coming. It’s funny about, you know, parents of athletes, you wonder how much of that is nurture, how much of it is nature. You know, you see.
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
Jen Rubin
who are… and it doesn’t even have to be the same sport. Often, it’s just… the ability and also kind of the mindset, this is your job, this is what you do every day, and it’s a level of kind of dedication that maybe people who aren’t athletes don’t expect or don’t communicate with their kids. You see it with parents who are their… children’s coaches. You’ll see it with, other people who have been lead athletes in other sports, and you’re right, it’s, it is funny to think that we’re gonna see the children and grandchildren. How many generations of Mannings will there be, before.
Pablo Torre
I just saw a video this weekend of Marshall Manning, who apparently exists, wearing a.
Jen Rubin
Oh, my God.
Pablo Torre
Jersey, and, like, practicing. Like, literally, this weekend, there’s a Marshall Manning, Peyton’s son now. So, it’s the joke, but also incredibly real. Yeah.
Jen Rubin
Exactly, exactly. And your father’s favorite player, a great Filipino guy.
Pablo Torre
Yes! Oh my god.
Jen Rubin
Anne? Yes.
Pablo Torre
Yes, she is wonderful. Yes, yes, yes.
Jen Rubin
Coming into her own, absolutely, among the ones with a very strong following. So, lots of fun ahead. Pablo, as always, a great sports week, and you know who we didn’t talk about this week? We didn’t talk about the crazy orange guy, because.
Pablo Torre
Oh, God.
Jen Rubin
Sports itself was so fun, and sometimes sports is what you need, because are we going into a land war? Are we ending the war? Are we… it’s so insane, there’s a time to just check out, and… enjoy sports, and that’s, I think, what we all did this weekend.
Pablo Torre
As much as I would like to find some sports connection to a now-former director of counter-terrorism, intelligence, and the Strait of Hormuz, I would… I’m so delighted that I didn’t know what you were talking about until you pointed it out, and that is.
Jen Rubin
Yes.
Pablo Torre
That is a win for us this week.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, so that’s what sports does for all of us. Pablo, enjoy the week. Great seeing you, as always, and we’ll come back on the Monday right before the finals in the basketball tournament.
Pablo Torre
And baseball season, baseball season’s back, we’re already here.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, there you go. Alright, take care.
Pablo Torre
Thanks.
Jen Rubin
Thank you.
