Trump finally got the Peace Prize he was so anxious to receive. Only this gold medal didn’t come from the Norwegian Nobel Committee, it came from FIFA. How ironic that an organization known for it’s corruption would award one of the most corrupt President in American history?
In the latest episode of Offsides with Pablo Torre, Pablo and Jen discuss two major stories of corruption: the FIFA Peace Prize and Tom McMillen, a former professional basketball player and Democratic Congressman, being named in the Epstein files. Pablo spills on his exclusive interview with McMillen himself, who conveniently claimed not to recall his time with Epstein. Listen to the full interview to find out more.
Pablo Torre is an American sportswriter, podcaster, and television host. He contributes to various programs at ESPN, including Pardon The Interruption and Around The Horn. Keep up with Pablo on his Substack and podcast Pablo Torre Finds Out .
The following transcript has been edited for formatting.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief at The Contrarian. If it’s Monday, it must be Pablo Torre. Welcome, Pablo!
Pablo Torre
There’s, there’s, where do you want to start, Jen? Let’s just get into it, because, as always there’s so much.
Jen Rubin
What organization you would most want to receive a Peace Prize from?
Pablo Torre
You know, clearly, clearly FIFA has established the literal gold standard when it comes to fake prizes that you give as more than a quid pro quo. There needs to be some phrase beyond quid pro quo, because this is the most corrupt organization in sports. giving a medal, which Donald Trump notably just put it around his own neck, and did it in such a way that put to shame all other fake trophy distributor.
And so the only answer I have is I would also like one of those. Because I believe that what Donald Trump got was, the equivalent of, you know, an investment in his crypto enterprises, the investment that he sees in who he gives pardons to. Like, it’s… it’s unprecedented, is what I’m saying, and I think we should all be so lucky as to drink from that same fountain.
Jen Rubin
It is so appropriate that FIFA should give a prize to Donald Trump. You couldn’t make this up, you know? The writer’s room would be banished if this were a movie. And only Donald Trump would take it seriously, and like run around like a little kid, he’s so excited, everyone else would be, like, cringing. But that is Donald Trump, and that still leaves open all kinds of questions about what the World Cup is going to look like next year.
Is he gonna have ICE agents running around? Are we going to have immigration problems? What’s the turnout going to be? Are foreigners really going to want to come to the United States? Donald Trump’s, country at this point. So I think this is, an effort to perhaps buy his, acquiescence and cooperation, but of course, Donald Trump is the world’s worst ingrate, so I don’t think this guarantees anything, and he should be on notice.
Pablo Torre
There is another dimension to the proceedings, though, and this was, by the way, an interminable show, which took place in Washington, D.C., and they had all of these luminaries from soccer and entertainment and Hollywood from across the world there, and what was so funny was that on the red carpet before it was awarded, to your point, Donald Trump did need to pretend like he didn’t know if he was gonna get it, as if there were other people plausibly in consideration for this specific award at this place from this guy who had previously, as we’ve covered on your program before, left the FIFA Club World Cup trophy in the White House, so that Donald Trump could also have this other golden bauble rotating around American politics for as long as he wanted.
It’s just so transparently fraudulent. And the most insulting part, isn’t, like, even the corruption, it’s how they’re even bothering to pretend that it’s not. And that part of, like, the… we all have to just smile and nod as if we’re all cabinet members. You know, in one of these meetings. like, pretending like he’s not our version of, to use a sports comparison, he’s not our version of Vladimir Putin scoring, like, 5 goals in one of these hockey games he plays against.
Jen Rubin
That’s exactly it! I want to know, first of all, who is the runner-up?
Pablo Torre
Yeah, Greta Thunberg, I’m guessing, was not there, like, clapping politely, as she learned that Trump won.
Jen Rubin
And secondly, as you point out, this would make Viktor Orban blush. I mean, most dictators have a way of, like, not so much, not so much, too much cowbell. You know, keep it, keep it down, keep it down. But that is the world in which we live, in which there is no such thing as excess. There is only Donald Trump.
Pablo Torre
Oh, by the way, you saw Wayne Gretzky there? Like, Wayne Gretzky, who’s… so, just, I’ve reported episodes about Wayne Gretzky and his friendship with Kash Patel and Donald Trump, and there he is.
Jen Rubin
Yes!
Pablo Torre
And I’m like, oh, that’s a sports all-timer, I guess that kind of makes sense, but then it’s just, like, the cherry on top of this absurd Sunday is… Wayne Gretzky literally has one job, and his job is to read the names of the countries on the slips in front of him, and he can’t do it. Like, it’s just…it is too on-the-nose to have Wayne Gretzky call Curacao, Caraco, and call North Macedonia North MaCKedonia. It is a total farce.
If you’re… I want to make this point, because you mentioned, like, who’s gonna go to these games. Soccer, part of its glory is that it is so clearly the most popular thing in the world. And so here you have this whole show, which is ostensibly about the ultimate prize in soccer, being refashioned and distorted and corrupted to be around this guy. And I’m not the biggest soccer fan in the world. I really appreciate the game, but there are people with levels beyond my enthusiasm. And if I’m a fan of this game, and this is what our governing body is doing. Making it about this guy, and not the game? It’s a ruining of yet another form of our culture. That is happening all the time, though.
Jen Rubin
You are so right. I feel like even watching it or going it would somehow be endorsing this, which does ruin it at some level.
Pablo Torre
Yes!
Jen Rubin
I also want to know what the advertising is going to look like. Is it going to be one, like, Donald Trump crypto ad after another around the stadium? Or is the halftime going to be, like, happy birthday, Mr. President? You know, how far is this going to go? This is getting to be really, like, Soviet-style pageantry at this point.
Pablo Torre
It was like watching… it was like watching Donald Trump’s Super Sweet 16 party. Except it was also the World Cup. And by the way, let’s just look ahead, right? So, guess who else is in the offing for host countries? Like, Saudi Arabia gets this in the 2030s, right?
Jen Rubin
Right, it’s… it’s perfect for… it’s perfect for a FIFA. It is just…
Pablo Torre
That’s exactly what FIFA has always wanted, which is to say, a way to enrich itself and its participant oligarchs at the expense of the actual people who their customers actually, you know, should be.
Jen Rubin
And, of course, at the time this was awarded, they didn’t know Donald Trump was going to be in office, so this was, like, the one opportunity to have decent democracies hosted, and that has been ruined because Donald Trump has reappeared on the scene. So, But yes, that is, problematic.
But let’s switch gears, but not really switch gears, because it’s still about Donald Trump, and talk to us about your interview with a basketball player, former basketball player, Tom McMillen , who was, a visitor, apparently, to… at least one event, in which Donald Trump and Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein attended. Tell us about how that interview came about, and what he said.
Pablo Torre
Yeah, the most infamous video, and I think the most famous, scandal that’s consuming our country, let alone American politics, is the video of Jeffrey Epstein walking into Mar-a-Lago in 1992. NBC had cameras all over the place, Donald Trump was throwing a party, and in walks Jeffrey Epstein, and that’s where you get the footage as well of him and Trump buddy-buddy whispering sweet nothings to each other, at one point causing Jeffrey Epstein to double over laughing. That is the famous video, which you’ve now seen, of just, like, clearly their, intimate friendship.
And so, when I was watching this video, I realized that when Jeffrey Epstein is walking into Mar-a-Lago, he is walking in alongside a person who otherwise would be so deeply conspicuous, if not for the specter of the Epstein files and all of these, backstage connections, which this administration wants to hide. Because the person who walks in with Jeffrey Epstein is 6’11”, and he is, in fact, former NBA player Tom McMillan. And Tom McMillan, who is hiding truly in plain sight, he’s, like, walking into Mar-a-Lago with Jeffrey Epstein. He is at some point, we played in the episode that we did, he is trying to duck out of the frame—he’s directly behind Trump and Epstein as they’re laughing, watching the women in the Mar-a-Lago ballroom. He’s ducking out of the frame behind them unsuccessfully because he is 6’11”, and you see him talking to Ghislaine Maxwell in the background, right? And so, I look into who Tom McMillan is, and I recognized him as an athlete, but he’s also—spoiler alert—a three-term Democratic congressman from Maryland. He is also a Rhodes Scholar. He is also someone who was appointed by President Clinton to chair the Sports and Physical Fitness Committee. He is somebody who is a member of the Maryland Board of Regents, the university’s Board of Regents.
He is a real accomplished person who competed at the Munich Games and was on the famous basketball team that lost to the Soviets, he’s like this Forest Gump character, but this story led me to want to reach out to Tom McMillan, and so I invited him onto my show for an interview about, at first, just that video and what it’s like to be that guy. And, Jen, the quirk of timing that is both a gift to a journalist, and also, I’m sure, deeply frustrating to Tom McMillan, was that in between my invitation for him to come on the show, and his appearance on the show, the latest wave of Epstein files were released by the House Oversight Committee, and they became literally days in between… I wish I could have planned it this way, I did not. Days in between they became searchable in databases.
There are tens of thousands of files. And so, what I did, was look for Tom McMillan. And he is… He is there. He is on the flight logs, he is in the Black Book. He is somebody who clearly, as per an email that was sent to Jeffrey Epstein by a woman named Gwendolyn Beck, who is separately identified in lots of other reporting, as someone who was in the orgies with Jeffrey Epstein, who herself ran for Congress, had political donations from Jeffrey Epstein, who is featured in photos, with Prince Andrew and Melania Trump and Ghislaine Maxwell, like, this is that network of people. She sends Jeffrey Epstein an email with the subject line, Tom McMillan, because according to Gwendolyn Beck, Tom McMillan is hoping to get back in touch with Jeffrey Epstein.
This is years after, by the way, he was already a registered sex offender, and so forth. And so, I had the rare opportunity to actually have a person in the Epstein Files sitting across from me, over Zoom, and I just asked straight-ahead questions about his life, but also this. And it wound up being, I would say, one of the more tense and, at various points, awkward, but meaningful interviews that I’ve ever done.
Jen Rubin
And what… bottom line, what did he do? What did he see? What can he tell us about Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump?
Pablo Torre
Yeah, what’s fascinating is that, at various points, he’s recalling in vivid detail his high school basketball career. You know, which is 50-plus years ago at this point. He’s recalling the Munich Games. He’s recalling these very specific details about the good things in his life. But whenever a question came up about why were you in the flight logs, do you recall being on this flight? It says in the flight logs, by the way, that, it’s Tom McMillan, parentheses, Congressman. So there’s really very little ambiguity around which Tom McMillan it is. When I ask him those questions, he says he does not recall.
Jen Rubin
He does not recall. He does not recall being on Jeffrey Epstein’s plane?
Pablo Torre
Correct. And then, when I ask about the email, and I… you watch me do it, like, it’s in real time, and you watch me present him with these documents. We’re on Zoom, so I’m showing it on his own screen. And then, by the way, we followed up after the interview was over with full attachments in clear sort of resolution what we are showing him, which is, again, publicly searchable and accessible now, as all of these things should be, he is still responding that he does not recall.
And so there are ways, I would say, to answer these questions that are less suspicious. Unfortunately, I don’t think we got those answers. And so when I say, like, here’s an email from Gwendolyn Beck in which she is saying that you are looking to get in touch with Jeffrey Epstein, and that you’re bragging about how you have visibility to be an ambassador, because the Obama administration’s gonna appoint you, and all these things. Again, he is saying that he has no memory of meeting this woman, and that this is not something that he would have done.
So, I want to be fair. There is no evidence that Tom McMillan was doing anything criminal. But what we have is, as often is the case in this story, evidence that he was one of these people in this network of very powerful political figures who was there, at the party, with Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. Donald Trump, he pointed out, Tom McMillan did say, was one of the first donors to his political campaign. Tom McMillan then proceeded to point out that the reason he was in the Black Book of Jeffrey Epstein, he has two separate entries with his information right there listed, was because Jeffrey Epstein liked to collect people, and so I don’t know if that was necessarily the language that, he wanted to have said, given that the interpretation is.
Like, yes, it did seem like Jeffrey Epstein was collecting powerful people as well as women who were, victimized by him, and he was keeping one quiet about the other. Jen, it just sort of, beggars belief that one could be all over these files, but totally ignorant of the Trump and Epstein connection, let alone your personal connection to Epstein himself.
Jen Rubin
Did he explicitly deny having sex with underage girls?
Pablo Torre
Yep, he said that he feels for the victims, that none of this… all of this is merely him being in the same room, with people 30-plus years ago, and that lots of people were at these parties, lots of people did this stuff. But that he didn’t—and I want to be fair about that.
But it’s also I think, really important to point out. then when it comes to accountability, in the absence of some smoking gun evidence of, like, what did you really do, right? Like, why were you so interested in this guy? What was he providing you? Why are you hiding all of this? The only version of accountability for so many of these notable figures that seems plausible is Them having to answer questions about it.
Jen Rubin
Yes, yes, it’s reputation. Absolutely.
Pablo Torre
And so my hope is that, if nothing else, this is something of… A model or a version, an example of what it looks like when someone, a journalist, a, congressmen, get in a room together, and you just ask every question that is presented by the evidence. And don’t let up. I just think that a lot of people… I mean, you go through this black book, and I’ve now been reading just through all of the files. Right. The number of people who exist in public without having had to answer these questions is insane to me. Yes. And Tom McMillan had the misfortune, if anything, in the present tense, in 2025, of being a sports figure who landed across my transom. It should not just be him being asked these questions, it should be all of the people. By the way, including Bill Clinton, who he was appointed to the commission by! It goes on and on and on. Bill Gates, you know, just like Robin Leach is… it’s just like, it’s… you could spend hours just naming people, and I hope that those people get asked questions.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and I think, first of all, what is remarkable is that Apparently, no one else has looked carefully enough to see whether they recognize some famous faces. You are the first person that I have heard of, maybe Congress has separately questioned him, it doesn’t sound like it, to actually look at the evidence in front of them, and as you said, just ask the questions. And I would hasten to add that answering questions to you, and answering questions under oath to members of Congress or their staff are two different things. And we’ll see if they follow up. I certainly hope they do. I certainly hope someone is going through that book.
I mean, now that it is public knowledge, call these people in, ask them questions. As you say, Pablo, we have no evidence that Tom McMillan, or anybody else in particular, was engaged in a crime, was engaged in exploiting these, at the time, girls. But they should be asked. They should know, and with so many people around, the question remains, how could you not know what was going on? And this kind of false ignorance, this feigned confusion, is really, it beggars belief, as you say, and it leads to the bigger question, which I want to know. Where were state and local authorities all these years?
With all these witnesses to interview, with all of these people that apparently knew. Why was there never a more thorough investigation, and why was the only prosecution a little slap on the wrist, where he got to go to jail every night, and then go home? And by the way, it was not like the jail that, you know, an average, you know, petty criminal would go to. Much nicer. So, I think this just stresses two things. One is, you know, people gotta pay attention, and secondly, the cover-up has to end.
The absolute ability of people to hide in plain sight is what is really galling about all of this, and they should be embarrassed. They say, well, if I didn’t do anything, I shouldn’t be embarrassed. Oh, no! You should be embarrassed, because by the time many of these people were interacting, he had already been convicted of being a sex offender.
Pablo Torre
Yes!
Jen Rubin
So, where is it written that you can’t be embarrassed if you didn’t commit a crime? I’ve never learned that rule.
Pablo Torre
I don’t want to be so grandiose about it, but in this story, I feel like it’s appropriate to assert the point of the Fourth Estate, and what the public interest is meant to be. Because it is the place that fills the gaps. When it comes to again, I just think about, like, of course, this is a bipartisan concern, to be very clear, by the way. This is, something that both parties, for their own credibility, mutually, should be invested in really getting to the bottom of.
And I think about a civil society, and I think about what it means when people are making choices about what to ignore when they’re associating with someone, when they’re taking donations from somebody, when they’re using someone’s network to enrich themselves, or to go on nice trips on private jets. To do anything resembling, self-interest.
And one of the things that I think as a country, as a civil society, we should want these people to have in the back of their minds is, even if I am not personally committing a crime, I will be asked about this, and it will be something that sunlight is going to shine upon. Because other than that, I would say that the way this happens for so long without any oversight is because people are telling themselves, as long as I don’t personally do the thing, as long as I look the other way, as, by the way, any number of sexual abuse stories tells the story of, right? Like, over and over again, well, I didn’t know! Well, it’s like, you could have, though. And that question of. What did you know, and when did you know it, and how hard did you try to know? While you’re making and taking from this man, It’s one of the last guardrails we have on what is truly, like, villainous behavior. And journalism is, I think, unfortunately, essential in making that guardrail, a reality.
Jen Rubin
It absolutely is. Unfortunately, we’re gonna have to leave it at that this week. We will look forward to having you back. Two very heady, important stories that show how important sports is to everything. So have a wonderful week, Pablo. We will look forward to having you back next week. Take care.
Pablo Torre
Thanks so much, Jen.
Jen Rubin
Bye-bye.
