Last April, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro and his family were the victim of an arson attack. Just a few days ago, a Pennsylvania man was arrested after threatening Gov. Shapiro’s family with stalking and violence. Despite all this, the Governor is still committed to a career of public service.
Jen had the opportunity to sit down with Gov. Shapiro to discuss his new book Where We Keep the Light, his complicated feelings towards Israel, the need to end all ICE operations immediately, and the worrying attempts to nationalize (and rig) the elections.
Josh Shapiro is the 48th Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. He served as Attorney General from 2017 to 2023, Chair of the Board of Commissioners in Montgomery County from 2011 to 2017, and State Representative from 2005 to 2011.
The following transcript has been edited for formatting.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief of the Contrarian. We are delighted to have with us Governor Josh Shapiro from Pennsylvania. Welcome, Governor!
Gov. Josh Shapiro
Jen, it’s awesome to be with you. Big fan.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Well, we are thrilled to have you as well. You are out with a new book. Tell us about it, and why this kind of book right now, which is very personal and very biographical.
Gov. Josh Shapiro
Well, I wrote Where We Keep the Light initially, Jen, in response to, really, the juxtaposition I was seeing every day, traveling across Pennsylvania, and just seeing goodness in people, neighbor helping neighbor, folks looking out for one another, good things happening. And the conversation happening more at the national level in the media, and I certainly mean no disrespect to you in any way on that, that was showing more polarity, more differences, and frankly, more darkness. And I wanted to write about that, and I wanted to write about how I was raised in a way to find the light, and how my faith guides me toward the light.
And, you know, Jen, about, I don’t know, 5 months or so into the process of writing the book, my family and I experienced extraordinary darkness with the arson attack and the, you know, assassination attempt on my life, my family, where we experienced in those initial moments extraordinary darkness and depth. what I don’t think Lori or I, my wife Lori and I, expected coming out of that was the light that emanated from our neighbors, the prayers that came from people of different faiths that lifted us up, the strength we found in that. I’m a very prayerful person, but I never found strength from other people’s prayers. And so, you had this moment where the whole point of my book, To Find the Light, we saw in a much more in a much deeper way, in a more profound way, and that ultimately, you know, sort of put an exclamation point on what I was trying to convey. throughout this book. I think the story of America are ordinary folks doing extraordinary things, lifting one another up, and bringing goodness into the world, and that’s what I was trying to highlight through my own personal stories in this book.
Jen Rubin
This was a horrific event, and horrific not only for you, but for your family, your children. Did you, as you describe in the book, have a concern that perhaps public life was asking too much, that for the sake of your children, you might do something else with your life. You obviously made a different decision. How did you reach that, and How did you come to the decision that that would be kind of giving in to the darkness if you ran from public office, public life?
Gov. Josh Shapiro
You know, Jen, I struggled with it. And I struggle with it to this day, but maybe not in the way that you might think. I have never once been afraid personally, and thought, I’m doing something different, I’m picking a different career because, I’m afraid. In fact, just literally 70 to maybe 96 hours ago. a person was arrested in Pennsylvania for stalking and making terroristic threats against me and my family. So, it, it, you know, continues to, literally, this moment. I’ve never felt deterred or scared as it relates to my service. But what I have struggled with is this idea that I am doing something that I find great purpose and great meaning in.
Something that I think is more important right now than ever before, given what we’re seeing coming out of Washington. And the fact that I’m doing what I love, and putting my kids’ lives at risk, my wife’s life at risk at the same time, that is something I’ve struggled to deal with. And I’m working through. It’s not something that’s gonna sideline me or knock me out of public service, but it’s something I’ve had to work through as a dad and a husband. And, you know, just dealing with it again this past weekend with this latest arrest brings that back and reminds you. But I feel great purpose in service. I love my children, my family more than anything in the world. I would never want to do anything to harm them, and I feel that we are protected and safe, but By the same token, the fact that you’re having to even think about this stuff and make these decisions shows just how broken our politics is today, and I want to be in the arena trying to fix it.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. You speak, at length about your love of Israel, you spend time in Israel, you’re a proud Jewish-American. There are many American Jews who are struggling with the relationship with Israel right now. They love Israel, they believe the Jewish people should have a place to call their home, a homeland, and yet many of the actions of the Jewish state have been deeply offensive to people who have, very deeply held Jewish values. What do you say to those people, and how do you reconcile your own concerns, first of all, with human rights, with democracy, with your desire to have a partner based on values, and your love of Israel, the land, the people, and the Jewish homeland?
Gov. Josh Shapiro
Yeah, so let me… you asked a number of questions, let me try and unpack it, and if I fail to get to one of your points, please come back at me on it. Absolutely. Let’s start with the baseline here. I love Israel, and I hate what this government has been doing in Israel long before October 7th, and certainly post-October 7th. I’ve been very vocal, very outspoken for years and years and years that I think Netanyahu is a failed leader who’s isolated Israel and the world, made Israel less safe, and compromised its future. I’ve been incredibly outspoken on that. I also think it is, it is okay to both hate what the government of Israel is doing, but love the idea of Israel, and love that there is a place that Jews can call their home if they so choose.
And so, you know, to me, that is something that I realize there are many conversations about that now, particularly post-October 7th. There were fewer when I began having those conversations years ago, and I’m gonna continue to try and advocate for the policies that I think bring about more justice in Israel, bring about the possibility of peace and a two-state solution, something I’ve advocated for for more than a decade. I’ll continue to be critical of Israel as it waged its war against Hamas. I think going after Hamas is a just cause. I think the manner in which Israel did it, their failure to consider civilian casualties as they went through that, that wartime process, I think, is not only horrific when it comes to loss of life. It further isolates Israel and makes it harder to create stability and peace in the region. At the end of the day, what I’ve always wanted, and what I want to this day. is a young child growing up in Israel, or a young child growing up in the West Bank or Gaza, to grow up thinking they can be anything that they want to be. Who can grow up thinking that there is a world of promise and possibility ahead of them. That is not what exists right now, certainly in the Palestinian-controlled territories. And I hope, I realize it feels like a stretch right now, but I hope that one day we can achieve that level of peace and opportunity for all people in the region.
Jen Rubin
Let’s shift to American politics. We are seeing horrific outrages, from ICE and the Border Patrol. Pennsylvania has had some very strong, outspoken mayors, police chiefs, denouncing these tactics, saying that they are not in keeping with good policing, good law enforcement techniques. What is your, take on what needs to be done to reform or even do away with ICE, and what would Pennsylvania do if we see the kind of activity that we’ve seen in Chicago or Los Angeles or now in Minneapolis?
Gov. Josh Shapiro
Sure. Well, let’s focus on the immediate case, which is Minneapolis. You mentioned others, LA, Chicago, other cities that have had to deal with this federal onslaught directed by the president. This is a compromised mission in Minnesota. It is a failed mission. It is a mission that’s not only claimed at least two lives, Ms. Good and Mr. Pretti, but it has also undermined people’s constitutional rights, and it has eviscerated the most important tool law enforcement has to keep a community safe, and that is trust. It has completely eviscerated trust in the community.
And, to me, this mission needs to be ended immediately, not wound down by a few hundred ICE or CBP personnel, but actually ended, because I believe that this mission is unconstitutional. And I would argue, as a former Attorney General, just based on the available public information, Jen, I don’t… I want to be clear, I don’t have access to anything that’s not public here. I think those federal officials who, at least in the case of Mr. Pretty, where I’ve seen the most evidence, they deserve to be charged. I think a voluntary manslaughter charge is in order.
I also think that there’s been obstruction of justice by federal officials when it comes to protecting the crime scene, and and other things, I think there’s arguably a conspiracy case to be made out as well. I want to see an independent, state-run investigation. If charges are warranted, I want them to be brought, and I want this to end. Period. as it relates to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, which I believe, Jen, was the kind of tail end of your question, you know, governors, certainly I should just speak for myself, I prepare for any and all emergencies in our Commonwealth, together with an outstanding team at the Pennsylvania State Police, at Pima, my Chief of Staff, and my senior leadership. You typically, a governor would prepare for a horrific storm that might claim lives, or, God forbid, a shooting, or some violent incident in a community. We are now going through exercises, and have been for months. of this idea of the federal government dispatching troops into our cities and towns against my wishes, against the wishes of a local mayor. Stop and think about where we are in America today, that this is what we have to do to prepare.
And I can tell you that we are prepared. I hope you’ll accept the fact that while I’ll answer all of your questions in depth, I probably won’t. get too far in depth in terms of the steps we’ve taken, but we are prepared with both a courtroom strategy and a strategy in the community. We’re organized at the local and state level. And we’re even talking to federal partners who understand, like us, that the best way to keep a community safe is by all working together in ways that protect people’s constitutional rights, not eviscerate them, as to what we’re seeing in Minneapolis. So. We’ll be prepared. I sure hope that the president doesn’t mess with Pennsylvania, doesn’t mess with Philly, or Pittsburgh, or Redding, or Lancaster, or anywhere else. And it’s a scary time in America, and I recognize I’ve got a responsibility to protect the residents of my state. I’m doing everything in my power to do that.
Jen Rubin
Do you think ICE is reformable, or does it need to be, frankly, demolished and rebuilt in some other fashion?
Gov. Josh Shapiro
I mean, look, I’m encouraged by the fact that the Congress of the United States seemingly, Jan, on a bipartisan basis, you track this much closer than I, have recognized that ICE is completely and utterly out of control. I think when we say ICE, we… it’s a bit of a shorthand, CBP as well, and we’ve got to make sure they are part of this. I think that… The problem here is the direction that they are receiving. from the president, from the vice president, from Miller and Noem and others who are absolutely out of control, who have no respect for the rule of law, no respect for people’s constitutional rights. That’s why I said earlier, the mission is absolutely compromised, it needs to end, and there needs to be firm legal guardrails. You know, we assume in this country, and we really have for the last 2 and nearly 50 years, we assume that we have honest, decent actors in positions of authority that are going to respect the rule of law and the Constitution. We now no longer have that, and so we have to legally build up guardrails around this president and his administration so that they do not Go to their worst impulses, which is what they are known to do, and instead, defend people’s constitutional rights, not erode them.
Jen Rubin
Last topic I want to ask you about, we were, engaging in some gallows humor, before going on, but it used to be, when we had the Constitution in effect, that states ran elections. You now have this, maneuver in Fulton County, Georgia. We suspect, if we listen to Steve Bannon, it won’t stay in Georgia, of the feds coming in, seizing ballots, the president announcing he wants to nationalize elections. This smacks of, a preview of an effort to stymie the will of the voters in 2026 in November. First of all, what’s your view of it, putting on your old, hat as an Attorney General? And secondly, what is Pennsylvania prepared to do to prevent this?
Gov. Josh Shapiro
Well, first, just back to Law School 101 here. The federal government, as you know, does not run elections. The states, really the counties run elections. Here in Pennsylvania, we’re blessed to have 67 county officials with a whole lot of volunteers. Jen, they are Democrats, and they are Republicans, they’re independents, they’re our neighbors who run elections, together with my Secretary of State, Al Schmidt, who I would argue is the finest in the country, he’s terrific. A Republican, by the way, Jen, and I’m a Democrat. I appointed him to that position. And we have had free and fair, safe and secure elections here in Pennsylvania. Period. The President of the United States has tried to overturn the will of the people here in our Commonwealth. In fact, back in 2020, he and his allies sued me, then the Attorney General, 43 different times to try and throw out the votes of Pennsylvanians. He went 0-43, I went 43-0, and we had a free and fair, safe and secure election, and we will again.
So, we are going to stop this president from doing anything to nationalize our elections. They will remain a product of state-run, county-run operations. And I will continue to push back on the lawlessness of this president and respect the will of the people. Look, I’m from Pennsylvania, one of the swingiest of all swing states, I think you could agree. Donald Trump won here in 2016, and he won here in 2024, and he lost here in 2020. And throughout the 10 years or so that he’s been on the scene in Pennsylvania, sometimes Democrats win, sometimes Republicans win. That’s because we’ve had free and fair, safe and secure elections, and we will again. Donald Trump is obviously trying to cheat and rig the system. Because he believes that’s the only way that he can win. And I think you will see a chorus of Democrats and Republicans stand up against that and preserve and protect our democracy.
Jen Rubin
Well, Americans who love democracy certainly hope that you are right. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for the book. It is a good read. It’s an unusual book. Most of these things are rather formulaic. Yours is very personal, so I enjoyed reading it. And we’ll look forward to having you back. Good luck in your campaign.
Gov. Josh Shapiro
Thank you. I’d love to come back, I appreciate what you do, and I hope folks go out and buy Where We Keep the Light. I’ll see you soon.
Jen Rubin
There you go. Bye-bye.
