First things first, congratulations to Pablo Torre Finds Out for winning the Webby Award for Best Sports Podcast! Much deserved.
Secondly, on today’s episode of Offsides, Jen and Pablo discuss how the Boston Red fired manager Alex Cora and five other coaches. They also touch on the NFL draft, and Steve Kerr’s political comments. Additionally, Pablo critiques how the sports industry has sacrificed entertainment for economic efficiency.
Pablo Torre is an American sportswriter, podcaster, and television host. He contributes to various programs at ESPN, including Pardon The Interruption and Around The Horn. Keep up with Pablo on his Substack and podcast Pablo Torre Finds Out .
The following transcript has been edited for formatting purposes.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief of The Contrarian. If it’s Monday, it must be Pablo Torre. Welcome, Pablo!
Pablo Torre
Jen, good to see you, as always.
Jen Rubin
Good to see you, too. First of all, congratulations, you are the winner of a Webby! Tell us about that.
Pablo Torre
We are, allegedly, the best sports podcast. Pablo Torre Finds Out, which you can find on YouTube. We’re on Substack, Pablo.show, wherever you get your podcasts is what I’m contractually obligated to say, as a podcaster. I say this all the time to you, we’re doing a show that is very different from other sports podcasts, and I know that you and I feel similarly about the value of doing independent journalism and independent analysis. ’m repeatedly and routinely gratified by the fact that people seem to notice the difference. So, it just means something to get our, sort of, our niche validated by people who are used to a diet that’s very different, typically, from what we’re offering.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Well, not a niche market. Good journalism, we hope, is a big market out there. Excuse me. And, it is very well earned, because you’re right, you can sit there and listen to talking heads argue about, you know, who’s the favorite in this or that league, but if you want to do real journalism, you need to get facts, and you need to be willing to investigate. So that’s what’s special about what you do.
Pablo Torre
Thank you.
Jen Rubin
Let’s switch gears and talk about the Red Sox who fired just about everyone on their coaching staff. What is going on, and is this part of a bigger story with the Red Sox?
Pablo Torre
Yeah, I’ve never seen something like this. So, the Red Sox, if you just take a snapshot of their day over the weekend, they win a giant blowout, and then they fire the manager, Alex Cora, and 5 other coaches in, like, this Red Wedding kind of turnover. And if you only see that day, you’re like, what is happening? But if you zoom out, it’s an even more fascinating story.
Because, really, the Red Sox are a team whose fan base, of course, long-suffering, but then, as a Yankee fan, I feel this personally, but then, quite successful one a bunch of times, you know? It was 1918, and then it was, here, here’s most of a hand’s worth of rings. And so, what happened was according to the fanbase, and I want to spotlight the fanbase’s psychology on this, because it’s very interesting, it’s not merely that Red Sox fans became Yankee fans, who demanded more, more, more. It’s not enough to win several, we want to win them all. It’s that the Red Sox ownership has become a focus of this. So, John Henry’s the owner of the Red Sox, and John Henry does not merely own the Red Sox, he also owns Liverpool. He has other interests in his sports portfolio. And so when the Red Sox— and all of this, I think, goes back to the trade of Mookie Betts, Jen, who you may recall because he helped a certain Los Angeles Dodgers team that you may or may not have a rooting interest in.
But the Red Sox gave up on him. And so what was fascinating to see was Alex Cora, the fired manager, and the Red Sox, by the way, they’re not a good team this season. So, on that level, it’s not like, you know, it’s totally a surprise. But again, what was interesting was that Alex Cora and these managers, you go on Instagram, and they are posting references to the Mookie Betts trade. And so, all of this speaks to the question of why would the Red Sox trade a franchise player who was in his prime back then, years ago now. Why would they do that? And the theory then was, they’re doing it to save money.
And the theory now is the Red Sox are not bad because they have 6 coaches here that deserve to be fired, and finally we’ve rooted out the problem. The theory from the fan base, and I think it has legs, is that management has begun to operate in a cost-cutting mode, despite being the bleeping, big-market Boston Red Sox. And so it was Mookie Betts, it was Alex Bregman, it’s all of these players who got shipped out, who were valuable, perhaps, in fact, too expensive. And because John Henry wanted to, it seems, reapportion his funds. I want to support Liverpool over here. He’s taking money from the Red Sox coffers. And so this question of, like, this is a private equity style approach to sports, in which you’re not spending to win, but you’re spending to keep your costs down and to remain efficient. It’s a fascinating New Age nightmare for a big market team.
Jen Rubin
And it comes at a time when Liverpool, which won the Premier League last year, is having really a mediocre to terrible season. Very disappointing. They’re gonna lose Mo Salah, and I don’t know that they’re gonna buy someone to replace him. Is that the same phenomenon there? That people are suspecting that they’re not into winter, they’re into profit?
Pablo Torre
Look, if you are a Liverpool fan, if you’re an Anfield, and you’re looking into the crystal ball, you kinda see the face of Mookie Betts. And that trade was look, not to belabor the point, it was disastrous before it happened, it was disastrous in the year since. Everybody knew this is insane on the level of value to winning. What was very deliberate, though, was the notion of value to the balance sheet. And so if Mo Saleh begins to resemble a Mookie Betts-type character in the imagination of Liverpool fans, I don’t blame them.
This is, you know, it’s funny, Moneyball was, of course, the most revolutionary sort of mindset that has since spread across all of sports. And I get why. Billy Bean in the Oakland A’s, small market team, cutting costs, using market inefficiencies. And I love the book by Michael Lewis, all of that, I get it. What’s so interesting is that those same principles now apply to the richest teams, who can afford this, but choose not to, because they still worship at the altar of efficiency. And there will be a point And I… look, I cover the gamut with you of sports owners, right? From Steve Ballmer, who uses more money than he’s allowed to, to now owners who rules by spending less than they have to. And so, for me, or than they want to, let’s say. And so, it’s interesting.
We will get to a point in sports where the owners, as they get richer and richer, become less and less tethered to the notion of outcome on the field, because they’re constructing these financialized instruments. And this is why, by the way, private equity wants in. This is why we’re seeing, by the way. Josh Kushner, Jared’s brother, his Thrive Capital firm just invested, just bought a stake in the San Francisco Giants. And so you’re seeing across all of finance. Sports as a good investment, and it is. The question is, what is the conflict of interest between profit and growth on the one hand, and a maniacal desire to win on the other, which is where the fans are, by the way.
Jen Rubin
Yeah, yeah. So has John Henry responded to any of this directly? Does he deny this is what he’s doing? Has he been quiet?
Pablo Torre
It’s been interesting. I would say that he has not, by any means, acknowledged or fed into the criticism. He’s been pretty remote. What’s so interesting was this move to fire a half-dozen coaches and send them off in a van, a literal van, that we got to see, you know, if you follow on social media. It was interesting because that was so loud, but he has remained silent. I mean, silence has really been his mode. And again, the calculation is, what are they gonna do to me? They can’t force me to talk.
And so, again, it’s a difference between, do you need to, I would say. Respect the demands of your fans. And fans can be insane, let’s be clear about that in fairness. But insofar as this is, in any way, a civic institution, here you have the population chanting, now, sell the team. And this is despite the success, and that’s where the sort of like the town-gown relations, like, it’s coming home to roost right now, and it’s really interesting to watch.
Jen Rubin
Now, the teams that are super successful are super successful in part because they win a lot. The Dodgers, the Yankees, you know, you can name the NFL and NBA teams as well. It’s almost like, with the exception of those, if you’re not gonna win all the time. Then, the next layer down is just make money. And what that does is, I think, is it really narrows the competitive field. You’re almost seeding the top of the leagues to these really powerhouse. You know, franchises, and everybody else is just counting the beans and making a buck.
Pablo Torre
Jen, it’s the death of the middle class. We see it in sports, because the incentives are so clear. Like, the term in the NBA that has since also spread across all of sports is the treadmill of mediocrity. Right? And look, again, let’s think about this analytically, if you’re the mind—John Henry’s a very smart man who also has not spoken at a news conference since he traded Mookie Betts in 2020.
I was just looking at that. When was the last time we spoke? It was 6 years ago. He is analytically quite rigorous, and if his view of his own team is, this team is not good enough to win a title, so why are we pretending like we should be spending just to remain on the treadmill of mediocrity, then he has certainly a point. The issue is that when Moneyball was a disruptive seeking of market inefficiencies, this mindset felt like it was an exception. But because this has now become a herd mentality, the product has fundamentally changed.
I think about this all the time in all sports. There is a conflict, broadly speaking, between efficiency and entertainment. If you are too, if you’re too realistic, let’s—and this is where it’s funny—if you’re too realistic about your own probabilities. Then you are incentivized to give up on a season sooner than your customers.
Jen Rubin
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, absolutely.
Pablo Torre
And then the customers are out earlier, and you could have kept them watching longer, and entertainment in sports, it’s really important to remember this, entertainment in sports is not the same as being efficient at running your team. And so if you have all of these financialized mindsets operating you could argue too rationally, then the entire thing begins to crumble, and the middle class is gone. It’s the worst teams and the best teams, and it’s not that interesting anymore.
Jen Rubin
Right. Now, eventually you can sell the nest, you can lose your fan base entirely, they go away, but, you know, fans will stick with you for a very long time. It is interesting. This is sort of the flip side of the betting frenzy. It’s about the betting, it’s about the efficiency, but what about the game? Yes. And that’s why we love sports. So, if you’re just gonna bet, and you can bet on, you know, a snail crossing the street. Fine, but it’s also not very interesting, so you have to balance the two.
Pablo Torre
It is interesting and poetic, you know, I don’t write as much as I used to, but Mookie Betts being the name is kind of funny in that regard. I’m like, oh, wait, there’s the betting line in all of this, right? The before and after. The… by the way, I would say that sports gambling has come in. Betting has come in. Because there is a recognition that we need to be able to gin up interest in otherwise meaningless and terrible games. And these are not independent concerns.
I think all of the people who run sports. From the front office presidents to the commissioner’s office. They see what’s happening so clearly. And the question is, oh my god, people are gonna care less about the games because of the on-field results. How do we create interest in those games that are otherwise terrible, on the treadmill of mediocrity? Let’s create this prop-betting universe. And so these are all complimentary, in a kind of terrifying.
Jen Rubin
That’s amazing. Absolutely. Well, let’s go to another unique individual in sports, Steve Kerr, longtime coach of the Warriors. They did not make the playoffs. And there is some question whether he would be returning or not. And suddenly, there are a couple stories out there that part of the problem is that he is too outspoken. And of course, he is very outspoken.
He’s a very articulate advocate for gun safety. His father was assassinated. He, is an advocate against Trump and against Sort of this debasement of our language and the racism that’s become commonplace. What do you make of all this? Are they really disenchanted with his politics, or is this just time to move on? You know, he’s really kind of not where he was, the team is not where he was, they need a change.
Pablo Torre
Yeah, I think a bunch of things are happening here for what… the sort of, like, basketball side of it, Steve Kerr presided over the modern dynasty that was the Golden State Warriors, really the last great popular NBA team when it comes to a national and global level. The ratings when they played Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Kevin Durant, like, that whole era was box office gold. And so then, the question is, when your team is less good, and you remain outspoken, what’s that like as these players age.
And so, I think there is a bit of attrition when it comes to Steve Kerr not having this position atop the league, but merely now, again, on that sort of, like, middle-class treadmill, where now is it, exhausting to have to tolerate a guy whose father, by the way, just for people who don’t remember Malcolm Kerr, and I certainly didn’t know him, of him at the time, but he was a fascinating and seminal figure in the study of U.S. and Middle East Arab world relations.
I mean, he was assassinated, he was the president of the American University of Beirut. He was assassinated by government in 1984. This story directly connects to Iran. And so, Steve Kerr, as an advocate for gun safety, as an advocate For something like a… let’s call it a sober-minded approach to what America’s Middle East policy might.
I have always considered him, like, a presidential candidate in waiting.
Jen Rubin
Exactly, exactly. Extremely thoughtful.
Pablo Torre
And thoughtful, and by the way, like, the bar is low, let’s acknowledge it. But the question of if you’re in a political ecosystem that wants a candidate who can talk to men, who comes from sports, who has, at the same time, some credibility among the manosphere, and is familiar with what it is to lead you know, without presenting as emasculated. I’m like, I don’t know, Steve Kerr is about as good a draft pick as there is in the sports landscape.
Now, this interview, by the way, was interesting also because it was expansive. And so Steve Kerr said something, too. You know, he was asked, like, why weren’t you stronger on the issue of China? This is when Daryl Morey was posting, this meme about Free Hong Kong, and Steve Kerr, who was otherwise quite, again, vociferous in his political principle, was suspiciously quiet, and he essentially admitted, I was trying to walk the company line for the NBA, and he regrets not being louder about that.
And I just thought that recognition, which speaks to both the conflict of interest from the NBA, when it comes to the geopolitics of sports, you just rarely hear it so bluntly articulated, just, oh, okay, he’s saying the thing out loud, finally. And then also, just the notion of… I regret not being more outspoken. I’m just like… I… I did not… I will say this, when he was quiet at the time, it was something that stuck out to me as a mark against him. But being able to say, I regret this, this is why I did it, I’m like, that’s all you can ask for! Right. So I appreciated that part, too.
Jen Rubin
It doesn’t quite make sense that the NBA or the Bay Area both of which tend to be on the progressive side of things. If you had to pick a league that was the most progressive, it would be the NBA. The Bay Area is one of the most progressive places in the country, that they would take umbrage at his politics. It sounds like a little bit of, I don’t know. A little bit of gossip, a little bit of biting. Do you think they would be having this conversation at all if they were in the playoffs? I don’t think so.
Pablo Torre
I think the playoffs is a solve for most things. I will say this about the NBA broadly, though, because you’re right about the demographics of the Bay Area. If you look at NBA ownership particularly, as much as the NBA is coded liberal. And as much as there are certainly lots of donors to liberal causes, when it comes to the rhetoric politically around Trump, it has been extraordinarily quiet.
And I think that’s a recognition of what lots of people in finance, as we watch, by the way. If you watch the events over the weekend with the White House Correspondents Dinner, and who was even in the room? It’s a lot of people who recognize that we must do business with this administration, and therefore we will be quiet about this administration. And so the NBA’s outspokenness, I mean, Steve Kerr on that level, has remained a relative outlier.
Lots of people don’t want to employ someone who’s going to jeopardize, as we look at various mergers still to close, very few people want to employ someone they don’t have to who’s going to jeopardize billion-dollar transactions. And so, I think two things are true on that. The demographics of the Bay, but then also the NBA in a bigger picture sense.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, fair enough. Let’s close with the NFL draft. Obviously, Mendoza was gonna go first. He seems like the quintessential good kid. He talks about the responsibility of the team, he’s been learning the team playbook for a while now, hardworking, you kinda have to root for him. What about the rest of the draft? Any surprises? Any teams blow it in your mind? Any teams overperform? Or is the thrill of this all been eradicated by AI, and everybody is just making the most logical pick?
Pablo Torre
I think that there certainly has become something more like a herd mentality when it comes to how to analyze picks. I also think that one of the great recurring examples of human fallibility is the NFL draft. So I’m not convinced that anyone is any better at picking these things as they outsource it to computers. Quarterbacks, for instance, and Mendoza is the obvious number one pick, and he should be, but quarterbacks are so historically hard to predict, and they’re the most important assets that you can get.
A cost-controlled quarterback can change your franchise’s, again, a billion dollar decision, and they’re not good at forecasting that, and I don’t think AI, because, and I mean human fallibility in two ways, in the evaluators, but also in the players. So, the notion that, like, you have security around, here’s my decision, and it’s now rigorously backed by, you know, whatever artificial intelligence you have, that’s never gonna happen. In fact, the sort of, like, pageantry of human fallibility, I’ll take you to the human interest part of the story, which was that Mike Vrabel, the head coach of the New England Patriots. had to remove himself from Day 3 because he’s embroiled in this larger infidelity scandal with now former athletic reporter Diana Russeini. And we’ve covered that on my show most recently, in terms of, like, what is known there, what’s going on, and there’s a lot of just mess, frankly, there.
But when it comes to what did this say about the process of the draft, it was fascinating, because Mike Vrabel. for all of the mess he got plunged into, certainly most relevant to his wife and his children, his own family, he did not miss Day 1 of the draft, he did not miss Day 2 of the draft, he missed Day 3 as this kind of concession, because you need to go to counseling. that I will miss the least important part of a very important weekend. And so, even there, it was just like. I’ve never heard of counseling that was like, you know what, for the first several rounds of the NFL draft, you should be there. But day 3? It’s time to become a family man.
Jen Rubin
Right? And if the first lesson of counseling is get your priorities straight, you probably didn’t make it.
Pablo Torre
It was the most perfect sort of, like, joke that wasn’t a joke, of just, like. Again, human fallibility, what does that mean? It means that you have a coach who created A distraction, if nothing else, for a team that resents distractions, dating back to Bill Belichick, dating back to Robert Kraft, by the way, two other guys with romantic issues, let’s call them. So, then you have Mike Vrabel, who’s like, I guess I need to… I don’t know. I need to fall upon my sword for one day out of three, because I need to figure out how to help my team get new draft picks. And it’s just absurd. It’s all pretty absurd.
Jen Rubin
It is, and as much as I may deplore his behavior on behalf of his family, and as much as it raises issues on the media side, and on the journalistic side. I fail to see how this is an issue at all for the Patriots. You know, people do bad, stupid personal choices. Didn’t kill anybody, didn’t break any laws, you know? Do we care? I guess? Because of this relationship with the media, we care. But otherwise, really, is it our business?
Pablo Torre
You know, we did an episode of my show where my friend, the former president of the Marlins, David Sampson, echoed your argument, which is affairs… this is not a pioneering example. You work in politics, you work in sports, you work in business, they’re happening all of the time. And the question of, like, what’s new here and different, I mean, to me, what’s interesting, frankly, in this Day 3 of the NFL draft thing. is that, for reasons of deliberate strategy or accidental stupidity, the Patriots validated this as a sports story. Because they took him out of Day 3, and now it was like, why are they doing that?
And so, I think maybe the through line in that story is, they did it to themselves. There was a way to minimize this, to say, even on the front end, the front end before the investigation, every tabloid dove in, on the front end, you could have acknowledged, like. We’re not pioneers in the world of affairs. Instead, they did this, and they are paying what feels like a public relations toll because of it.
Jen Rubin
And yes, and this strikes me as a bunch of people in a conference room, and this is the rotten copper founders they came up with, because one guy wanted to fire him, and one guy said, it’s none of our business. They said, okay, day two. No, make it day three. Okay, day three, you’ll stay home. And that’s how you got to a silly kind of outcome and all that.
Well, Pablo, we have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous, and as always is with sports, Enjoy your week, another great week of sports, more clay court tennis, the end of the Premier League. Once more, Arsenal seems to be caving. NBA playoffs, we got a lot going on, so enjoy. Take care.
Pablo Torre
Yes. See you next time, Jen.
Jen Rubin
Bye-bye.
