On Tuesday, thousands of messages from a Young Republicans group chat was leaked. The leaks exposed a culture of casual bigotry, misogyny, racism, and antisemitism within the Republican party and its supporters. How, as a society, are we meant to reconcile with those infected by hatred and contempt? Jen is joined by Bishop Mariann Budde to discuss how, even in the face of such contempt, we must retain our dignity, respect, and love. Whether or not someone may change their beliefs is beyond our control.
The pair also discuss Bishop Budde’s new book We Can Be Brave, which addresses teens and young adults and examines the important life lessons we learn when faced with difficult choices. As the Bishop explains, it’s much easier to teach through the medium of narrative rather than didactic lecture. However, the lessons in We Can Be Brave are relevant to all readers. With the Trump administration trying to threaten Americans into silence, the need to be brave is an existential necessity.
Mariann Edgar Budde serves as spiritual leader for the congregations and Episcopal schools in the District of Columbia and four Maryland counties that comprise the Episcopal Diocese of Washington. The first woman elected to this position, she also serves as the chair of the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral Foundation, which stewards the ministries of the Washington National Cathedral and Cathedral schools.
The transcript below has been edited slightly for clarity.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief of The Contrarian. I am thrilled to have with us Bishop Marion Buddy, who is the Episcopal Bishop of Washington, D.C. Welcome!
Mariann Budde
Thank you. Wonderful to be with you.
Jen Rubin
It is wonderful to have you. You are out with a new book, We Can Be Brave, which is actually based on a adult version of how we learned to be brave that was, released, a number of years ago. Why rewrite the book or recast the book as a book for teens, which, by the way, is very mature, does not talk down to them, does not condescend to them. An adult, like me read it as if it was being written for me as well.
Mariann Budde
Oh, that makes me very happy. Well, first of all, to say thank you, and then I want… I was really honored to have the chance to write the book for young people, and… and two motives. One, to acknowledge that we make so many of the most significant decisions in our lives when we’re young, and to honor that, and to encourage young people, and remind them of the many ways they have learned through their lives, because nearly every day they’re doing something they’ve never done before, and how they’ve learned through those small steps to be brave, maybe without thinking that they were being brave, right? And then the second thing is to acknowledge that there’s a lot that the world asks of our young people right now, and I wanted to… I wanted to give as many resources as I could through narrative, personal stories, history, and then also to normalize some of the more painful aspects of the lessons we learn, the disappointments, the failures, the times when we have to pick ourselves back up again, the letdown after, after a high moment of what seems like when we’re at the top of the world. So to… to maybe create a life map for young people, to realize that they’re on a… they’re on a journey and they’re learning every day, and they’re not alone.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. I was struck by how the book was written. It’s, uses, as you say, history, your own personal history, which is very moving, other figures, the power of narrative, as opposed to didactically saying you need to do these 8 things to be brave. Tell us why you chose narrative. It’s very much in keeping with the person of faith, because, of course, faith depends heavily on narrative.
Mariann Budde
Exactly. I mean, I’ve been a preacher for 40 years, and so storytelling is the medium of transformation, which is why the sacred texts are so powerful. It’s not the didactic, it’s the stories, the people, the lessons, the learning, but as you see them in real time with people who look a lot or feel alike like you do. So that’s just how human beings, I think, are created, to respond to narrative and to see ourselves as part of a narrative, our own story, but also the larger story of our society, of humankind.
And I also think that it helps us to remember, you know, we tend to fixate on moments when we see people doing something really extraordinarily brave, but to see the whole backstory of their lives and their humanity, and the progression, that allows us to find ourselves on that same path, and when our moments come, and they do come, we have more to work with when it’s our turn to step up and be brave.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. One of the things you talk about is stepping up, meeting the moment, recognizing that there is, something that is called for us in public life among adults, we see so many instances in which, people have a choice, and very powerful, very wealthy people choose not to be brave, and yet very, ordinary people, I hate to use the word, but of limited means, who are really very vulnerable, choose to be brave. What goes into that? Why aren’t the rich and the powerful more brave in opposing authority? And why is it that sometimes, the most vulnerable are the bravest?
Mariann Budde
What a great question. I mean, there are, first of all, we have to acknowledge there are very powerful, wealthy people who do brave and wonderful things, so it’s not… it’s not a complete dichotomy. But what you’re describing is what we could also see in our sacred traditions, right? That the stories of the Christian faith, the Jewish faith, the Muslim faith are of ordinary people, often poor people, marginalized people. Jesus was born in the backwater of an oppressive… a country under oppression, so that’s part of the human story. And so, that one thing that says to us is that you don’t need a lot of influence and power in the worldly sense to make a world of difference.
And it also is a cautionary tale for those of us who do rise, and I include myself here, who do rise to places of greater comfort and financial privilege that we feel we have more to lose. And, and we get… it’s easy to get comfortable, and maybe even overly attached, and that can cloud our judgment. It’s a warning to all of us and also an encouragement, because we can always turn that around. And again, the stories in Scripture, the stories in life are of people who do that, and… and are never sorry that they did. And I think that’s something that we can hold onto as well.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. I thought one of the most interesting parts of the book was the aftermath of having one of these emotional highs, these brave moments. Because we all go through this, and it’s like, now what? How do you reintegrate, sustain that?
Talk to us a little bit about that, and it’s so nice to see someone else write about it, because it’s something we all feel, and we sometimes think, like, am I the only one who has this letdown?
Mariann Budde
Right. Like I said, it was actually one of the chapters I was most eager to write. And it’s because, first of all, it happens, which is so disorienting, right? Here you are, having done this thing, or accomplished this great thing, or, you know, in some proverbial way, the lights are all on you, and everybody’s clapping, or whatever, the equivalent of that. And then… nothing. Right? And, you know, there’s just this long stretch of no drama, and of a disappointment or failure immediately afterwards. And it can be very shaky. And I wanted to explore that. First of all, spiritually, it happens all the time in the life of faith, and that’s part of the spiritual path. It happens in a human life.
And what we do in those times, I think, are as brave and consequential as the moments when we are feeling like we are being brave. And that we have really important lessons to learn in that rejoining of humanity, or spiritually speaking, coming down from the mountain, coming back from a, you know, a transformative experience, and your family wants to know, like, will you take out the garbage, right? I mean, just something so basic. It reminds us that most of life is like that, and there’s a danger, actually, in becoming too, I don’t want to say addicted, but too… to go seeking after those moments when they’re not… it’s not our time.
Because we can make real, really unfortunate mistakes if we try to chase after those moments on the mistaken assumption that those are the only ways that we are brave.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Right now, we see so many people in our society who are being singled out or victimized, and we also see people coming together, the power of solidarity and community. Talk to us a little bit about the connection between bravery and community, bravery and solidarity, how we overcome and how we empower one another, when we act, not as singular people, but together as a community, whether it’s a neighborhood, a city, a country.
Mariann Budde
Right, thank you. I’ve been thinking a lot about playing around with the idea that courage is contagious, you know.
Jen Rubin
Yes.
Mariann Budde
And it’s kind of a mystery, we sort of pass it around to each other when we need it, or you may have it for a day, I may need it tomorrow. It’s communal. Which I think is what you’re describing. It has… when we are among a community of people who are being brave, we can feel more brave. I mean, that’s true of community in general. It can happen… really bad things can happen in community as well, so we have to be mindful of that. But there is a power that moves through us and allows us to step into that space, and it’s just so encouraging to know that we’re not alone. And that I may not feel very brave right now, but I want to be with people who are trying to do something good. And it may not, again, may not be in the spotlight. I think most of our brave moments are not spotlight moments. But as you were saying, there’s a lot of solidarity and compassion being lived out collectively, way under the radar of, whatever it is that people are talking about, that people are talking about. And, and I think that’s very important to remember.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. One of the things I wrestle with, and I know many people do, is whether people who, whether it’s racism, or hatred, or contempt for others, whether they are still reachable, whether there is still some way to persuade to talk to them. We recently saw in the news, a report of, a group of young Republicans who are speaking in the most hateful and venal terms as if this was commonplace. What do you say about, our ability to still reach people, the ability of people to…come to terms with their own shortcomings. That, to me, really is the definition of faith, that there is no one who is so far gone What and how can we help that process?
Mariann Budde
Hmm. What a powerful question. A couple of things.
I’m reminded of the words of Bryan Stevenson, the great, civil rights activists, who reminds us all, as he works with people on death row, that everyone is more than the worst thing they’ve ever done. We are all more than with the worst thing we’ve ever done. And so to remember that, and that we all have that capability within us, so there’s some humility that comes with that. That as, as difficult as it is to be on the receiving end of that kind of contempt and vitriol, that as, you know, our great spiritual leaders have reminded us, the only antidote to that is dignity and respect, and love. And so, that whether or not a person may change their minds or, see the world differently is beyond our control. All that we can control is how we will respond.
But I do know that, going back to the power of stories and the power of relationships, very few people change their minds about something because of an argument, you know? Oh, that was a good point, that I’ll see the world differently. It’s usually through a personal encounter of some kind. You know, someone… you know, Jesus tells the story of the Samaritan who helps a man wounded on the roadside, and one of the things that was so striking about that story was that the Samaritan was a man of a despised race, and he told that story in a way to say, the people you least think are capable of being in relationship with you, or doing good things. And he was telling that to his audience to say, there’s… you can’t hate Samaritans, right? They’re a human being, and they are capable. And so those kinds of transformations… there’s also a need, you know, to put some boundaries around, really destructive behavior and not to engage, kind of, hate for hate. But to do whatever we can to stay in relationship, and not to dehumanize and demonize in turn, because we gain nothing in that discourse.
Jen Rubin
Incredibly helpful. Pope Leo just came out with his first Exhortation. And he talks directly about the marginalized, in our society. You come from the Episcopalian faith, you administer to a non-denominational, community. I’m curious what your reaction was to that, and how that resonated with you, both as a faith leader and just as an individual, a person of faith.
Mariann Budde
Very inspiring. Pope Leo is very inspiring to me. He is consistent with a long line of Roman Catholic doctrine, first articulated explicitly back in the 60s, in which, a real understanding that the gospel has a preferential option for the poor, meaning not that God doesn’t love all people, of course God does, but if people are suffering disproportionately you can be sure that God is disproportionately concerned, and that as people of faith, we are to place our lives wherever we are in proximity and in relationship with people who are facing the greatest hardships.
And so, it is a call to all of us, again, who are in more financially and personally privileged places never to lose relationship and proximity to suffering, and to take, and to recognize both the ways that we can be of concrete assistance, and also in the ways we might be complicit in the… in the structuring of society that seems to need a lot of very, very poor people for the rest of us to be comfortable, and that there’s something innately sinful about that, that we have a responsibility not only to address, but to… that’s where we will find God. I mean, that’s what I think he’s trying to say. If you’re looking for… and he would say, if you’re looking for the person of Jesus, that’s where you go most consistently. I feel that that he’s standing on very solid ground in terms of reaching a broad base of people. It’s really hard to argue with that, theologically.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. As a Jewish person, he spoke to me.
Mariann Budde
Exactly, it’s a universal thing, right?
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. As we reach the end of our time, I want to talk about, frankly, the burden these days that falls on the faith community. There is so much suffering, so much, evidence of inequity, unfairness, there’s a violence in our society right now. And you do see the faith community coming together, and particularly as someone who, has a pulpit in a the nation’s capital, and interacts. How important is it for people of faith, and faith leaders to find commonality with themselves? Do you find the power when you come together with Muslim leaders, Jewish leaders, Catholic leaders. That that is a more universal, more powerful, sense of, love, of encouragement, of inspiration for people?
Mariann Budde
Oh, without question, and and it’s, it’s so essential, not to minimize genuine religious differences, right? Not to say, oh, we’re…
Because we’re not. But there is… there are some basic universal principles, honoring the dignity of every human being created in the image of God as one. Seeking the common good. Every one of our scriptures calls us to live lives that seek the common good. You know, seek the good of the city where you find yourself. I think it’s a paraphrase of Jeremiah.
And, so the… so there’s that, and then also just the power of those friendships. I mean, think of King and Gandhi, or the Dalai Lama and the Archbishop Tutu, or Joshua Heschel and King walking side by side. These are just really powerful examples, and some of my closest friends and partners in ministry are in the interfaith community, and
I wouldn’t trade those relationships for anything. And also they are where some of the biggest, pain points are tested. Right now, we’re having some really hard conversations since, the two years attack of Hamas in Israel between religious leaders and we have to talk about that, and we have to… and we have to remind… and still be… and remind ourselves of our friendship and the commonalities that we have, and then also say, okay, then how do we respond? So I, just to underscore the meaning behind your question, it’s… it is a true lifeline for all of us, and certainly a witness that I’m proud to be a part of in the wider community.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. I cannot thank you for enough. This was such a delightful conversation. The name of the book is We Can Be Brave, and even if you aren’t a teenager, I really enjoyed reading this as an adult. And for those of us who are pressed for time, it’s not that long. It has that benefit, too, so I would highly, highly recommend it, regardless of your age. And I understand a children’s book is coming out?
Mariann Budde
A picture book is coming out, which is my favorite. And of course, there is the adult version, which came out a year or two ago. But I also want to thank you for your work, and all that you do. You are a real inspiration to me, and really honored to have a chance to speak with you. Thank you, Jen.
Jen Rubin
Thank you. Thank you so much. We will look forward to talking to you again soon. Take care.
Mariann Budde
You too.
