Last Friday, DOJ released more than 3 million documents and images from the Epstein files. Many powerful people were named, including Bill Gates, Elon Musk, and Prince Andrew. What few mainstream media outlets are detecting, however, is the vast number of sports leaders mentioned in the files: owner of the New York Giants, the Commanders’ majority owner, and the owner of the New England Patriots, among others.
Pablo Torre joins Jen to unravel the sprawling web of politics, sports, and money while weighing what it means to hold power to account. Pablo and Jen also discuss the cultural significance of Bad Bunny‘s upcoming Super Bowl performance, the lackluster anticipation of the Winter Olympics, and the Westminster dog show.
Pablo Torre is an American sportswriter, podcaster, and television host. He contributes to various programs at ESPN, including Pardon The Interruption and Around The Horn. Keep up with Pablo on his Substack and podcast Pablo Torre Finds Out .
The following transcript has been edited for clarity.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief of The Contrarian. If it’s Monday, it must be time for Pablo Torre. Welcome, Pablo!
Pablo Torre
Another insane docket of stuff to talk about, Jen.
Jen Rubin
Exactly. I must say, today and tomorrow are my favorite days of the year. And that is because the Westminster Dog Show is on. And those of us who are dog lovers, this is the Super Bowl, the World Series, the Kentucky Derby, all rolled into one. It is the 150th anniversary of this sporting event, and if you love athletes, if you love dogs, if you love people being silly about their dogs, tune in. It’s my favorite. It’s just indescribable.
Pablo Torre
It is a year also in which I guarantee that the dogs are better behaved than many of the humans we’ll be talking about on the show today.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and they do what they are meant to do. They have a strong sense of honor, responsibility, and dedication to their jobs. Let us start with people whose name came up in the Epstein file. A lot of talk, obviously, has been on political people, but we found a whole bunch more people, and some confirmation of others, of sports figures. Talk to us about that, and what do you think the ramifications might be?
Pablo Torre
Yeah, I’ve said from the beginning that the Epstein Files are also a sports story, because sports has been where very wealthy, very connected insiders have also been congregating, and so it makes total sense that the Venn diagram is overlapping. But, I mean, there are a couple of places we could start, but I’ll start with Steve Tisch, who is the co-owner and chairman of the New York Giants. There are emails between—messages between Steve Tisch and Jeffrey Epstein that reveal that, oh, they talked about women all of the time, it seems like.
At the very least, they appeared to be connected over these conversations about, connecting Steve Tisch, who’s also a Hollywood producer, with women to take on dates. I mean, to say the least, it’s gross, and to say even more than that, it’s something that the NFL needs to figure out how to respond to Steve Tisch has said this is, you know, a brief association where we exchange emails about adult women, but when it comes to the concept of consequences and personal conduct, and what the NFL, which is, I will remind you, ahead of Super Bowl 60, the biggest institution in American life.
The question is what do we hold the owners to when it comes to anything resembling a standard of personal responsibility? And Steve Tisch is just one of the names here. Josh Harris, who’s the co-owner of the Commanders and the Sixers and the Devils and Crystal Palace and the new WNBA franchise in Philadelphia, there are emails between Josh Harris and Jeffrey Epstein assistants, showing that the men, at the very least, had, met once at a breakfast meeting in 2014, further communications about that, and I think the thing to keep in mind here is that by this time, Jeffrey Epstein, of course, had already been registered as a sex offender.
I mean, the charge was, the conviction was, solicitation of an underage prostitute. That now fits more neatly into the general declaration of him, of course, as… the most infamous pedophile in the world, right? And so the question is, why were you meeting with him well after these things were established in public, even if you have not personally been accused of criminal misbehavior, right? That’s another question that’s worth asking all of these men. Another character, by the way, who showed up here is the guy that I interviewed on Pablo Torre Finds Out, the former three-time Democratic congressman and Clinton appointee, and current regent on the Maryland Board of Regents. Tom McMillen, who has also now, after saying that his relationship with Epstein only happened in the early 90s and he remembers nothing else about it, here we have an email from the 2010s in which they are communicating and he’s wishing Jeffrey Epstein well.
And so, it doesn’t stop, is my point. Kraft. You know, gosh, in the emails, you read that Robert Kraft, it seems, was being recommended an attorney by Jeffrey Epstein to deal with his massage spa scandal, which was this 2019 prostitution case. And I’m looking further in, and Dan Snyder in a helicopter flight in a 2008 email. This is the former owner of the Washington Commanders. There’s a 2016 email in which he’s mentioned, I’m just gonna quote it here. There was some event that was being moved from dinner in a preview to preview only, going down further down the list. And Ron Burkle, the part owner of the Pittsburgh Penguins, former majority owner, is mentioned in here, and Russell Wilson, the athlete, tried to buy Jeffrey Epstein’s private jet, reportedly, although he says now on Twitter, you know, not today, Satan, I didn’t know it was Jeffrey Epstein. I say all of this to say that the avalanche of just connections to sports is vast, and we’re not saying that all of these people did criminal things. But the question of how closely associated was he to sports? Closer than anybody realized. And again, the files continue to be analyzed along those lines.
Jen Rubin
And part of what I think people are looking for from these people is not simply a denial, I didn’t engage in criminality. That’s, like, the bare, bare minimum. But what did you know? When did you know it? Why did you continue to associate with them? And do you have any remorse? And do you have anything to say to the victims? That seems to be the bare minimum that should be required of these people.
Pablo Torre
Yeah, there is a… you know, I think about this all the time with Trump. There’s a bed-of-nails dynamic sometimes, where there are so many things happening that no single thing punctures and cuts through. Because in isolation, any of these men talking to Jeffrey Epstein on the record after he’s a registered sex offender is already, like, a news cycle in and of itself. By the way, Casey Wasserman, the chairman of LA28, the LA Olympics. He is very flirtatiously talking to Ghislaine Maxwell throughout 2003 about real estate and massages, right? And so, the question of what did you know, and when did you know it, and how long did these relationships last.
That’s… it is, you’re right, it’s the least we could be doing, is just, like, asking these questions, and it’s interesting. In Europe, we’re seeing, like, resignations happen. There are politicians there who are already saying that we gotta step down, this is untenable. In America, we’re not seeing that. Correct. And the question of what even matters anymore, from a pure sense of our shared reality, as a scandal continues to grow. Accountability is always what I think we should be prioritizing.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and I think because we are so legalistic, somehow escaping legal indictment, is now, like, the default position. But I think these institutions, as you say, these sports, leagues. Have to have some minimum level of accountability, and that begins with coming clean, it begins by explaining yourself. And why have they never, for example, done anything for the victims? Why have they never advocated on their behalf, for example? So, it is, not just a political scandal, folks, it is a societal scandal for why men who are engaged with—prey upon young girls, are associated with those who do, do not face accountability, and that is a deep systemic problem. And it happens, let’s face it, for people in this very rich, very elite, clubby enclave. And that is the reality that we’re all trying to wrestle with.
Meanwhile, the Super Bowl does go forward, and, of course, last night, we got a little preview of why Donald Trump might not be going to the Super Bowl. And that was Bad Bunny, who gave this remarkable acceptance speech at the Emmy… at the Grammys, rather, where he said, we’re not savages, we’re human beings, we’re Americans. There were others who spoke up as well, but it is kind of this culture clash between Bad Money and the NFL, which we’ve just talked about as its own Jeffrey Epstein finals, which never took a moment of silence for the murders of Renee Goode and Alex Pretty. How do you see this kind of playing out on Sunday, and does this at all affect people’s perception of the league, perception of the Super Bowl?
Pablo Torre
Yeah, oh, it’s only more high stakes now. I mean, when Bad Bunny chose to not tour in the United States, he did it because of ice, because way in which the federal government was treating, you know, his main demographic, Spanish-speaking people who are in North America, and so he goes to Puerto Rico and has a residency. When the NFL booked him, you know, they did it because, and let’s be clear about this. They did it because their God is money. And Bad Bunny, right next to Taylor Swift, is one of the most streamed recording artists in the world. And so, in the algorithm of why do you do this, that is why. They want reach and audience and money.
They did not foresee, I think, the way in which ICE would be the foremost story in America coinciding because of the killings of Renee Goode and Alex Pereti, and because of 5-year-olds being abducted, because of all of this stuff. They did not foresee that Bad Bunny would, the week ahead. be on a platform, perhaps previewing at the Grammys, what he might do, just a taste of what he might do, in front of the largest audience in America. And typically, the NFL has been very, effective at minimizing what would otherwise be, explosive. I remember Kendrick Lamar, right? Like, Kendrick Lamar does a performance, and it was certainly subversive in ways, but it was not something that the NFL regretted in the end.
The question I have is, will the NFL regret this simply because Bad Bunny might say something that’s true? And that is, I don’t think there’s been as explosive a combination of recording artist and news cycle and platform than Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl as we’re, you know, less than a week out now.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and it would seem almost impossible to believe he’s not going to say something, do something, and he has the largest television audience that you would ever assemble in one place. Super Bowls are always the highest viewed things. Now, let’s also be clear, the NFL is trying to make inroads with Hispanics. That’s why Bad Bunny… it’s not just money in general, it is the Hispanic community. So the NFL is willing to take their viewership, it’s willing to take their money. But they’re not willing to say anything on behalf of that community. They’re not willing to stand up. And that, I think, is the ultimate conflict, that they’re now, I think, rightly perceived as, well, you want our money, but You do nothing when our people are killed. our people are kidnapped, our people are disappeared, our people are beaten. And can they maintain that dichotomy? The NFL has always been able to pull this off somehow, but one wonders if that ability is somehow, gonna fall off the, you know, the balance beam this time.
Pablo Torre
Yeah, I think that it is uncertain in ways that it’s never been. And, by the way, all this is a reflection of just the actual… we say all the time, the real world invading what’s supposed to be, allegedly, a safe space. Like, these are conversations that are being pushed because what the government is doing is so extreme. Because typically, in normal times, you can, in fact, the NFL has proven it, you can have your cake and eat it too.
But the actual people they are entrusting to carry out this insane agenda are making it untenable. And that is, if nothing else. the indictment that this administration should be abiding by. Like, you guys are not even able to get away with something that you… clearly could. You’re just going way too far, and… Right, exactly.
Jen Rubin
It’s like when you lose the NFL, folks, and you screw up the Super Bowl, you really know you’ve, like, gone beyond the bend. And of course, conversation about boycotting the World Cup is kicking up, and local protests about ICE being in Milan have kicked up. So, this is not going away, folks, and it is a measure of how badly Trump and his crew have stained America’s image, have distressed people who are not political, that all of this is coming out.
Now, we do have the beginning of the Olympics. Traditionally, the Winter Olympics just kind of don’t grab people. Most people in America are not glued to their sets year-round, watching solemn downhill skiing, or others, but they are the world’s most phenomenal athletes. Are people gonna tune in, do you think? Do people care? Is it… simply, you know, kind of, bad timing that the rest of the country, first of all, is under blankets of snow, and they don’t want to watch other people in snow. I’m… we’re late being in DC. What do you think, the Little Olympics have going for them, or not going for them?
Pablo Torre
Look, the Olympics, they always sneak up on me, the Winter Olympics specifically, because, look, I’m from New York City, I’m not somebody who grew up skiing or anything like that, but what happens inevitably is the Olympics reveal themselves to be a series of human interest stories, and characters emerge, and I personally love it when there is a vision of international coexistence.
This feels like it is a signal that we don’t always need to be at war with each other. is a delight. Now, here’s the problem with the Winter Olympics right now, is that if you were to make a list of all of the things that is… that are taking up people’s attention. It is… It is unusually crowded right now. And so, how to cut through, I think it’s bleak. I would imagine, and this is just the feeling I have, when it comes to the lowest rated Winter Olympics.
I have a feeling that this is an active issue. Now, granted, football will end, and there’ll be this sort of like the gap in which the NBA will be out there, but the Winter Olympics can grab us. But, you know, at ESPN, we always marveled at the ways in which, and this is television, and the internet is its own animal, but on television, which is how they still rate these things, the audience for any given sporting event was, in fact, the same audience that would otherwise be watching, like, cable news and politics.
And so, if politics is the thing that is grabbing people’s eyeballs, it’s not like that’s a separate audience. It’s actually one zero-sum game. And so… you’re competing as anyone with a phone can tell you. You’re competing with everything, and it’ll be very interesting to see what in America… because America, what are we… there is no Michael Phelps, right? There is no equivalent of a Katie Ledecky. So, no American star that cuts through like that, plus… Chaos at home, plus the general mess of everything. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s gonna be as big of a deal as they would like it to be.
Jen Rubin
But, you know, I think your point is really well taken, that we can find individual stories that remind us, as sports does, of Human excellence, of dedication, of, just the human spirit, and that is important to hold onto as we see such an explosion of Evil, wrongdoing, callousness, violence, that they are kind of a beacon, aspirational for us about, yes, you can be like that. So let’s finish on a uplifting note, and that is the Australian Open. As you folks know, I’m a big tennis fan. It seems like Carlos Alcarazz has taken a leap, even beyond Yannick Sinner, who lost in a marvelous, semi-final match. And went on to a final. Again, remarkable that Djokovic is playing at that level. at his age, after playing a 5-cent match just a couple days before against Sinner, but Carlos Alcarre seems to be slowly becoming not the top two, but the top guy in his sport.
Pablo Torre
It’s Novak Djokovic, I do think we should just marvel that he’s still wedging himself into this conversation. Torre: Sinner and Alcarrez and Djokovic is the tripod, and when you were the other third leg of the tripod. Dahl Federer, it’s remarkable to span eras like this. But the Alcaraz… but the Alcaraz inevitability is where my brain is also going. You know, I’ve marveled forever at his athleticism, and Sinner, Yannick Sinner, is marvelous, and disciplined, and strategically almost perfect, but… Alcaraz’s athleticism, and his relentlessness, and the way in which he took care of Djokovic, it does seem like he is number one with a bullet right now, and that you gotta prove that he’s not before we consider this, anything but a hierarchy with pretty clear rungs on that ladder.
Jen Rubin
And he has 7, 7 Grand Slams, and a personal lifetime career Grand Slam, which at his age is really unheard of. Meanwhile, on the women’s side, you have a bit more upset here and there. Rabakoda, who is on this amazing streak, who won the finals of the WTA, again, plowing down one top 10 after another, in the final beat, Sabalenka, who herself is a great champion. It strikes me that on the women’s side, there is bit more imbalance, and on any given day, a Rabakana can win, a Stadelina can win, a Svritek can win, that there is a certain parity there that makes the women’s game very exciting. And once again. Marvelous matches, semifinals, finals. Is there any doubt in your mind that women’s tennis has reached parity with men’s tennis in terms of excellence, eyeballs, stars, and the like?
Pablo Torre
I think you’ve isolated the quote-unquote issue, which is that the predictability of men’s tennis has basically minted these, crossover mainstream superstars. And Savalenko, who of course is, like, you know, the incumbent number one, Her being upset, you know, we always say… the thing that I think the women’s game does not need to prove is whether it’s a great business. It’s long been that. The question is whether you need a Goliath. And they don’t have that. And that’s… and look, as a fan, as a sports fan, I love it, the NCAA tournament, I love the fact that basically anyone can get it on any given year.
But when it comes to what does predictability offer, it offers this opportunity to just brand people in ways that leave your specific niche. And so that’s the only issue, but you’re right, the women’s game is healthy and strong, and that’s a trajectory that’s been traced, certainly, by the Williams sisters before them, in terms of that mainstream opportunity.
Jen Rubin
And that’s kind of really the choice. Do you look for… do you like the Yankees because they’re the Yankees, and because you know they’re gonna win, and because they have this great legacy, and because they’re the height of the game? Or the Dodgers, as the case may be? Or do you like… kind of the mix-up and the uncertainty and the rough and ready of the women’s game. So we’ll close on this. Who’s gonna win the Super Bowl?
Pablo Torre
I think it’s gonna be the New England Patriots. The Patriots are currently freaking out about quote-unquote maintenance. That’s the word they use for Drake May, and what he is nursing with his shoulder. I think that it’s the New England Patriots. I think in a year in which Bill Belichick got snubbed from the Hall of Fame, which I do think, by the way, is ridiculous, although it’s also turned him into David and not Goliath, which is a real gift. A very funny gift to give that guy. at this point. But the year in which he gets snubbed as a First Bout Hall of Famer, despite being the greatest coach of all time. the Patriots going and winning the Super Bowl with neither Brady nor Belichick is kind of poetically perfect in its own right, plus they have, I think, the better quarterback, plus defense that’s excellent. I think it’s gonna be close, but I’m taking the Patriots.
Jen Rubin
Well, when we come back, we will know for sure, and we will know which of the ads are our favorite. And by the way, the ads are so important, we now get previews of the ads. We got a preview of the Duncan ad, because this is so big. So, you know, ads have taken center stage when you get the previews during the Grammys for the ads for the ads.
Pablo Torre
I dare say that the throughline in these topics is that, money is important in sports, Jen. Shockingly, yeah.
Jen Rubin
Exactly. Well, as always, Pablo, boy, do we hit the intersection of politics, morality, sports, money, American society, every week. Enjoy your week, enjoy the Super Bowl, and we will see you on the other side. Take care.
Pablo Torre
See you next week.
