Historically, dictators—not democratically elected presidents—call for the execution of their adversaries. And yet President Trump called six Democratic senators seditionists and added “DEATH!” to the end of a Truth Social post.
Senator Chris Coons (D-Del.) joins Jen to warn that Trump’s escalating rhetoric poses a danger not only to the senators named but also to the country as a whole. Jen and the senator also discuss Trump’s embrace of autocrats like the Saudi crown prince, unauthorized conflict with Venezuela, and the need for Americans to rediscover shared moral ground.
Chris Coons is a senator from Delaware who serves on the Senate Appropriations, Foreign Relations, Judiciary, Small Business and Entrepreneurship, and Ethics committees. Before his congressional career, Coons served as the county executive of New Castle County and worked as an attorney. He also helped launch and run AmeriCorps.
The following transcript has been edited for formatting.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief of The Contrarian. I’m delighted to have with us Senator Chris Coons from Delaware. Welcome, Senator!
Chris Coons
Thanks, Jen, it’s great to be on with you.
Jen Rubin
You know… I guess we shouldn’t be shocked, but we can still be outraged. The president, in a Truth Social post, actually a couple of them, said that members of Congress who had said to members of our armed services that they, should follow the law and not follow illegal orders. The president said of these people that they should be executed, that they were seditious, that they should be hanged. You came out with a statement. Why is it important not to let this simply go by the wayside as crazy talk from the president?
Chris Coons
We can’t normalize these kinds of threats against lawmakers, against our democracy, against those who would… remind fellow citizens that all of us who serve the public take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. We don’t take an oath of loyalty to any particular president or king, or administration, and the aggressiveness, the virulence of his response is something that just should not be tolerated. Look, after the tragic murder of Charlie Kirk and Melissa Hopkins. I think, in Minnesota, the former speaker of the Minnesota House.
Two tragic public executions earlier this year. There was a lot of talk about how we need to lower the temperature and find a way, to do less inciting violence in our country. In fact, even Marjorie Taylor Greene this past Sunday on one of the talk shows was saying she thought we should lower the temperature. I can’t think of a more dangerous, incendiary, un-American thing for the President of the United States to say, then, that 6 members of Congress, 2 Senators, 4 House members, all veterans, all of whom served either in our military or intelligence services. should be not just, you know, criticized, but arrested, tried, convicted, and executed.
He pardoned a whole bunch of insurrectionists who had attacked police officers at the Capitol. In fact, he’s put several of them in his administration. He’s created what I think we call a permission structure, for folks at the margins in our society, who have anger management problems to act based on his accusing these 6 people of being traitorous insurrectionists. Heck, he also called Marjorie Taylor Greene a traitor. These are not light, casual words, and the consequences are deep and real. We have seen threats on the lives of federal judges and state judges. We’ve seen threats against the lives of virtually all of us and our families in Congress. At some point. We’re seeing threats against law enforcement officers, against educators, against public figures. We even had the assassination of a CEO on a sidewalk in New York City. We don’t need any more incitement to violence. So, why should we call this out? Because, frankly, this is not normal. This is not acceptable, and this is not tolerable.
Jen Rubin
What is the matter with your Republican colleagues? I haven’t heard a single Republican come out and say what you just did, which is the most uncontroversial statement that I can imagine. Where are they?
Chris Coons
Hiding. Bluntly, I have a number of friends in the Republican Senate caucus. They have stood up to Trump recently by refusing to end the filibuster when he demanded they do so to reopen the government, on the Judiciary Committee, where I serve, by refusing to end the blue slip, which gives Democratic and Republican senators a say in who goes on district courts, by rejecting his budget request on several appropriations committees.
So it’s not as if they’ve never stood up. But this is a moment where they have to. You can’t just let this go. And too often, they’ve willingly handed away the powers of the Senate, for confirmations and nominations. They voted for people who have no business being in the Cabinet, and they know it. They have voted for bills that never should have passed, and they know it. And they are handing away the important critical powers of the Article 1 branch to the Article 2 branch in a way that risks the separation of powers that is at the very foundation of our constitutional structure.
Jen Rubin
How do they do this? Are they afraid for their own safety? Are they simply trying to go along and get along? What’s the motivation for this complete subservience to Donald Trump?
Chris Coons
Look, President Trump has deeper, stronger, broader control of his political party, which is really his political party, it’s not my grandfather’s Republican Party. These are not conservative principles, these are populist principles that he’s governing with and leading with. And he is more powerful and more popular in his party than any Republican president in my lifetime. At least he was as of 6 months ago.
Now, we have seen some falling off as millions of Americans who voted for him based on his promise to lower their costs, make America healthy again, avoid stupid foreign wars. Well, their costs have gone up, their healthcare’s at risk, and he seems to be sleepwalking into a war with Venezuela. So, there have been some real criticisms of Trump. There’s been some debate on the far right about whether he has spent too much time focusing on foreign affairs, too much time cohorting with billionaires.
It is striking that he is spending more time on decorating a Marie Antoinette-like addition of a new, you know, gold-plated ballroom, more time entertaining kings and princes, than he is on focusing on the costs of groceries and healthcare for rural Americans. So, I do think that there is some weakening of his grip on the MAGA base. But my colleagues who refuse to speak out or stand up is because they don’t see any upside. And they see a lot of downside. If Trump comes after them publicly, they can get a primary. Their safety is at risk. The people in their home communities are critical to them, publicly and privately. MAGA is harshest on those within the ranks of the Republican Party who stand up to the president, even more than they are on those of the other party.
Jen Rubin
What are the motivations for these, six congresspeople, former veterans and, members of our national intelligence, structure? for coming forward was, I believe their concern about what is going on, with Venezuela. The president has no authorization for use of force. He’s interjecting, boats, the identities of the people, on board. We cannot confirm. How concerned are you that he is entering us towards a war that is either authorized or approved or really understood by members of Congress or the American people?
Chris Coons
What most concerns me, as he is moving us towards a military confrontation with Venezuela, is the lack of any clear plan. We’ve got experience as a country playing a role in the overthrow of dictators in countries from Iraq to Libya in the last 20 years, and the consequences of having no good plan for the day after were bad. You can look at someone like Maduro and say he’s an abusive authoritarian who rigged the election and has been oppressing his people, but to say that anyone is better than Maduro is to fail to plan for the very real chaos that may come after a change of regime. Trump and the Pentagon have not consulted with Congress as thoroughly or openly as I think is required, as our armed forces deserve.
If we’re gonna put American men and women in our military and intelligence services in harm’s way, they deserve to know that the elected branch that Congress, which is elected as well as the President, but we have the power under our Constitution to declare war, that we’ve been consulted, that we’ve had a chance to press and ask questions. That they’ve gotten our support for this. Nothing’s worse than going off to another part of the world, risking your life, serving, and then afterwards hearing that there wasn’t support. One of the real tragic lessons of Vietnam was that because the Congress never really declared war, never really authorized, except implicitly through the Tonkin Gulf Resolution and through ongoing year-after-year funding, that when it turned out badly, the country didn’t stand behind those. I think during Iraq and Afghanistan, we largely were paired. that breach of trust between members of the armed forces and our general public. There was broad support for those who served, even when there wasn’t broad support for the aims of those two conflicts, or for how long they went on.
This is putting at risk the trust between the American people and the military that we rely on to secure and defend us. So, these 6 colleagues of mine. All veterans, I think bravely stood up and said, we just want to remind you, to the men and women of our armed forces and intelligence services, that we all take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, and critical to that is rule of law. So if you have questions about whether an order issued to you is legal, ask. One of the first things President Trump did was to fire the most senior judge adjutant generals across the branches. That is a really bad sign. He also fired most of the inspectors general. So the people in the federal government, both civilian and military, most responsible for oversight, for integrity, for accountability, and so when our close and trusted ally, the United Kingdom. Is saying, publicly, that they are reducing intelligence sharing with us. for targeting these small boats on the open ocean in the Caribbean and Eastern Pacific, because they doubt whether these are legal strikes. Boy, if I were one of the operators being asked to carry out these strikes, I’d be concerned. I’d want my… I’d want my chain of command to reassure me that this has gone through an appropriate legal vetting and review process, and if I had concerns, I’d want to be part of a military that respects my refusal to obey an order that I believe is illegal.
Jen Rubin
Well, from what we’ve heard, the rationale that they may have come up with, to legitimize this, may be a bit suspect. Let me shift gears a bit, to that scene in the Oval Office, where Donald Trump is sitting next to MBS, who are intelligence service determined, was very much aware, very much involved in the assassination and the chilling dismemberment of a journalist, Jamal Khashoggi. And Donald Trump is making excuses. He’s saying. these things happened. This guy had nothing to do with it. What does that do for America’s standing in the world, and what was your reaction to that?
Chris Coons
So, Donald Trump, in quite a few ways, our president, has been undermining our human rights record, our commitment to democracy, and the credibility of our intelligence services. They reached an assessment, not just that the Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman, was somehow vaguely aware of, but directly authorized, approved of, luring an American resident journalist, writing for an American newspaper, into a consulate in Istanbul, murdered and dismembered him. And, that is a chilling moment. And that was done not because, Khashoggi, you know, didn’t pay a dinner bill. It’s because the Crown Prince didn’t like what he was writing. as a journalist, what he was saying that was critical of the Saudi kingdom, and was unwilling to tolerate that kind of dissent.
So, look, the freedom of the press, the First Amendment, is a foundational value of the United States, in no small part because we believe a free press is essential to the survival of democracy. Every bit as essential as, you know, the right to petition, the right to assemble, the right to worship or not worship freely. I mean, these are foundational aspects of democracy, but we think human rights and human rights protections against torture and murder, are global and foundational, and they’ve been ratified in the UN Human Rights Charter. So, for President Trump to basically say, oh, don’t embarrass my guests, who are you to ask these questions? is to wave away a sacred commitment that goes all the way back to the Declaration of Independence, and is rooted in the UN Charter that was ratified in the United States after the Second World War, to try and bring a global standard for individual human rights to the fore.
I have been to dozens of countries where the average people and the leaders admire the United States because of our decades and decades of commitment to human rights and democracy. President Trump is harming our standing in the world by not just looking the other way, but by demonstrably pushing back against the most basic rights, the ways in which he is dismantling our refugee programs, which long were some of the best in the world. And now moving. towards an obscene misinterpretation, a literally race-based refugee program for white Afrikaners from South Africa, when there is no proof or evidence of an anti-white or anti-Afrikaner genocide, makes a mockery of our standing that for centuries, and certainly decades. Has been globally respected, that we are a country of refuge for those who are fleeing religious persecution, political persecution.
When we shut the door to people, who go through the vetting process, who prove that they have a reasonable fear of persecution for their religious or political ideas. When we close the door to that, to all except a few who happen to be a racial minority, we really stand on its head, our long commitment to being a place rooted in human rights. And in respect for the dignity of all people.
Jen Rubin
Let me end on a question tapping into your divinity degree. You are certainly a man of deep faith, and you speak openly about faith. We’re at a time where Americans are very angry at each other, at their government, and this anger sometimes, as you say, manifests itself in violence. What can you say about the ability of Americans to find common ground in… eternal truths in basic morality. Are you optimistic that we can, find our common humanity again?
Chris Coons
I remain convinced that the American people are fundamentally decent and kind and want good things, not just for themselves and their families, not just for those who live near them or look like them or speak like them, but for everybody. We’ve been one of the most incredibly, generous, gracious, optimistic, positive people in human history, and that first sentence of the Declaration of Independence has inspired and motivated Americans to go and serve, to fight, and to uplift folks both here at home and around the world. We certainly have had dark and difficult chapters in American history.
I’m really enjoying watching Ken Burns’ series on the American Revolution right now, and I gave remarks at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York Monday of this week. And, you know, one of the foundational texts for me has always been Micah 6-8, in which the prophet Micah answers the question, what does the Lord require of you? But to do justice. to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. I think, all of us who are people of faith, or people who just are humanists who want to do right by their fellow citizens. would do well to remember this simple admonition. To be humble, to be unassuming in how we go about making the difference we want to in the world, to walk with our God, in my case, in the case of millions of Americans. Who believe, that’s an important guidepost for what we’re doing and why? To love mercy means to align your heart towards, grace and seeing the good in others. And to do justice, it’s an action verb. It’s not just to study it, it’s not just to admire it, it’s not just to think about it, but it’s to do justice.
And one of the foundational points of justice is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Look, anyone who’s got kids know that people have a profound sense of fairness and justice. If you have one child. and you say, you know, oh, I’m gonna give you, right, you know, an ice cream cone if you go do this with grandma, or whatever. And then you take it away, yeah, they’re disappointed, they’re upset, but if you… give your son something, but not your daughter? Oh my god, you know, suddenly you’ve got a, that’s not fair! We have a profound, innate sense of fairness.
And a lot of what’s driving division and difficulty in this country is people feeling like things are not fair. Whether they’re mad because they think the economy’s rigged against them, or they’re mad because the political system they think doesn’t respect them or excludes them, or they’re feeling wronged because they don’t feel heard or seen or respected. We can all contribute to a better, more effective, more just, and more sustainable community by starting with respect. Respect for the divine spark that is in every human being. respect for that foundational principle of justice, that we see everyone as being a created child of God, and by being humble about the certainty with which we express, those views. So… My hope is that we can find our way forward towards more of that.
My last point will be. These are some of the most corrosive tools human beings have ever invented. As we head into Thanksgiving week, I’m hoping folks will take more time to turn those things off. And actually settle your spirit and listen to the folks in your immediate circle of concern who will be with you and around you at a time when we should be setting aside time to give thanks.
Jen Rubin
What a beautiful way to end this, and, thank you for that, Senator Coons. A very, very happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, and I certainly hope, your view of human nature and America is, correct. And I must say, the series is magnificent by Ken Burns, and you really, one will learn a lot, even if you thought you knew a lot about the, the revolution. So, thank you so much. We’ll look forward to having you back soon.
Chris Coons
Thank you, Jen. Happy Thanksgiving.
