What is Donald Trump’s problem with The Pope?
Last weekend, reports emerged out of Italy alleging that the Pentagon attempted to bully the Vatican into supporting Trump’s war on Iran. Then, Trump posted a baffling diatribe against Pope Leo XIV claiming the Catholic leader was “soft on crime” and pro-nuclear weapons. Where is this one-sided beef coming from?
According to Catholic author and scholar Christopher Hale, Pope Leo’s anti-war public decrees are ruffling the White House’s faux-gold feathers. Hale joins Jen to explore the conflict between Pope Leo’s papacy and Trump’s pro-war agenda. The two assess the Pentagon’s recent diplomatic missteps, young men larping as religious crusaders, Pope Leo’s influential American roots, and more.
Christopher Hale is the author of the Letters From Leo substack. Hale is a political consultant and politician from Tennessee and was previously Catholic nonprofit executive. He helped lead faith outreach for President Barack Obama.
The following transcript has been edited for formatting purposes.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, editor-in-Chief of The Contrarian. What is going on with Donald Trump and the Pope? Well, we have someone who is ideally situated to explain it to us, Christopher Hale. He is author of the very popular Catholic Substack and community, Letters from Leo. He is a former Democratic operative and a democracy defender. With all that, Chris, you fit in perfectly here at The Contrarian. Welcome.
Christopher Hale
Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate being on.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Let’s go back to the report a few days ago, that the then-ambassador from the Vatican had a meeting at the the Pentagon, in which the Pentagon essentially leaned on the Vatican to get with the program on Iran. Is that correct? And have you been able to verify that?
Christopher Hale
Yes, so there’s now been 9 reports, independent reports, that all agree on the following, that it was a testy meeting, it was an unprecedented meeting. Obviously, the Holy See, the ambassador from the Holy See to the United States, is not someone who goes to the Pentagon very often. And now it seems that we have a little bit more of a pullback of that meeting. It seems like it was, in retrospect, an attempt to get the Vatican to preemptively support what would become the conflict in Iran.
The conversation was about, Pope Leo XIV gave a State of the World Address, as we call it, in early January, and he weakly referenced the Venezuelan operation, and lamented the breakdown of respect for borders. And so they… I think the Pentagon can see the writing on the wall that this guy was not going to support what was going… coming down the pipe. He did not support what was going on in Greenland at the time. He was not going to support what’s happening in Iran, and God willing, it doesn’t happen, but in Cuba as well. So I think it was an attempt to get ahead of that. And it was contentious, and maybe it gives us some sense of why Leo started coming out so vociferously against Iran in a way that he hadn’t before.
Jen Rubin
Now, they mentioned the Avignon Pope. For those of you out there who are not familiar with Catholic history, Chris is going to explain it to you. What is the Avignon Pope all about, and what does that denote to a member of the Holy See?
Christopher Hale
Very simple in layman’s terms. In the 14th century, the papacy was under attack by the French regime, the French crown, who wanted to bring it under its auspices and control. So they infamously kidnapped from Nevada, or from what was then St. Peter’s, Pope Boniface VII. and brought him under their auspices, under their rule, and moved the papacy for a period of about 75 years to Avignon in France. So, the Bishop of Rome. operated as an agent of France, of Bavion France.
And so, when that phrase came up, and I should note they contested whether or not that phrase has come up. My sources have told me it did, the Free Press said it did, and Financial Times has said it did as well. But that, connotes an attempt to exert military pressure. And mind you, it was said at the Pentagon. So if it was a joke, it was a joke in poor taste, but I think I know the Vatican took it seriously. And I think it’s important to note this story came out, first and foremost, from an Italian journalist.
It wasn’t an American journalist that reported this story first, and I think that’s newsworthy because it clearly got to Rome, that this got to Rome, and these sources came to Rome, and it upset them. And it wasn’t broken stateside, it was broken… it was broken by an Italian journalist, and I think that tells you everything you need to know about how the Vatican saw this.
Jen Rubin
Sure. It is bizarre to think that a pope would support a war, any war. That’s not what popes do. They generally advocate for peace, and they are not political actors. Why do you think the Pentagon thought this was a good idea?
Christopher Hale:
You know, it’s interesting. The reality of it is, is a lot of the actors in the Pentagon are part of what’s called the RAD Trad community, and I’ll kind of explain that. The Rad Trad community is a group of Catholics who are very skeptical about the reforms of the Catholic Church that happen at the Second Vatican Council from 1962 to 1965. And there’s this phrase we use often called LARPing. LARPing is basically taking on an image, an identity. And a lot of these young men, they’re young men oftentimes, really imagine themselves to be part of a Christendom, of a crusade period of the church that’s been, you know, done and gone with for a long time. But as you said, really, peace has been the schtick, if you will, of the Vatican for centuries now.
I mean, we oppose the Second World War. I mean, so there’s no war that you can see in modern history that we’ve been in support of. So, it was unimaginable to me that they thought that this would be successful. I think the hope, and it was a naive hope, that maybe because Leo XIV was from our shores, because he was American, he could better understand the argument. But it was naive at best, and sinister at worst.
Jen Rubin
Now, before this latest contrariant over the weekend, Pope Leo was making increasingly strenuous statements about peace. and condemning the use of Jesus, of God. To be a rallying point or a rationale for a war. That seemed to have been a response to a lot of the language we saw coming from Pete Hegseth. Is that how you read the language, that the Pope was using, or do you think he had a more generic message that he was trying to convey?
Christopher Hale
No, I mean, I think that this man is an American, he consumes American media, he has an iPhone, he plays Wordle, he’s paying attention to what’s going on in the United States. Yes, he is the Pope of 1.4 billion Catholics, but he’s an English-speaking pope. He knows what’s going on. So, it was very clear that that’s exactly what he was referencing. And before this really picked up steam, in mid-March, he said that God cannot be enlisted in darkness. And that really struck us who follow this closely as a starting of a more direct rebuke on Pete Hegseth.
Mind you, that statement took place about 3 weeks after this meeting at the Vatican. And so, he’s very clearly, concerned about abusing the name of God, is what he calls it, in the acts of war. And, I think it’s something we haven’t really seen in modern history in this country. Some conservatives will say, oh, of course, our presence invoked God’s blessings, God’s protection, but that’s not what Hegseth’s doing. He’s invoking the Old Testament God. He’s invoking a God of violence. I
mean, he talked about he wanted a no mercy and the wrath of unending violence, I believe was the phrase he used. And I’m sure when Pope Leo XIV hears that. it’s an affront to our faith, and I think that’s why he spoke out. So I would say to your readers. He expects us to be able to read between the lines. He cannot say Trump in homilies, he cannot say the United States in homilies, he’s the Pope of the entire world, but we can see the obvious, and I think he expects Catholics and people of all faiths and no faith at all to really be able to do that and see what he’s talking about here.
Jen Rubin
So, regardless of whether, the Pope thinks there’s a just war, an unjust war, and there’s a whole doctrine behind that. Do you think he would have begun speaking out Had Except not invoked God’s name? In other words, this seemed to me a defense of the church, a defense of the use of God. Rather than going after Trump or going after the administration. Granted, he may not have liked this war, but simply because there was a war going on. Was that your read as well, that he felt he had to defend the church in this regard?
Christopher Hale
Yes, I think he is very concerned about the hijacking of our faith. Look, I’m Catholic, I’m a Christian, I have religious beliefs, and one of my profound beliefs about Pope Leo XIV that really kind of defines the way I see it, my dogmatic certainty is just as God raised up a Pope from behind the Soviet wall, remember John Paul II was Polish, but it was under USSR rule. to defeat, communism in the 1978. I think that God raised up a pope from the Americas, from behind the curtain of MAGA authoritarianism to help defeat this disease that affects not just our country, but the entire globe.
So I think that, he views that this is oftentimes cloaked MAGA authoritarianism in the language of faith, and I think he believes it’s an abuse of faith, in fact, and so that’s why he’s speaking out. One thing I want to note. I think he has also shifted. I think that he actually thought there was ability of doing diplomatic relationships, in terms of back-channeling with the United States to communicate, and I think that January meeting foreclosed that possibility for him, so he decided to use the greatest gift that God gave him, I think, a pulpit and the ability to speak English very well.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Well, you’ve stolen my thunder. My piece for Wednesday, folks, is going to be a comparison of Pope Leo and Pope John Paul II. Even a Jewish girl from New Jersey can see the comparisons there. talk, before we go forward in the saga of the Iran war, talk a minute about immigration. The Pope has been very strong in speaking out in favor of the immigrants, the American bishops have been very strong in speaking out, in the wake of these ICE raids. Did you find that part of his appeal unusual and particularly pointed, or did you think that that was sort of in keeping with the tradition of For example, Pope Francis, who also spoke out, when he saw whether it was the American government or other governments abusing the weak, the poor, the immigrant.
Christopher Hale
Yes, I think he’s well within the line of the papal magisterium, the papal tradition. Pope Pius XII, who is no woke Marxist Pope or anything of the sorts, a very conservative pope before the Second Vatican Council, famously said that the Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, the Holy Family, was the archetype of an immigrant family, that Jesus Christ itself was an immigrant, and was… it’s supposed to inspire us on how to treat immigrants in our midst. one thing that’s different, he was just as… he’s just as vocal as Francis, and some could argue that Francis himself was more vocal. But it takes a long time in the Catholic Church to get your people in place. It’s a big church, 1.4 billion around the globe. And we didn’t really see pushback to Trump as much during his first administration, because Francis had yet to get his bishops on the ground here in the United States. By the time Leo comes to power in 2025, we have 12 years of Francis, and enough time for him to really get his team on the field. So it was a whole different set of actors at play, and so Francis’s bishops really incorporated and fought for Leo’s agenda.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and we saw that extraordinary scene of three cardinals appearing on 60 Minutes, for example, which I don’t recall happening before. come up to the present. Over the weekend, whether it was the events in Iran, whether it was the more recent statements of the Pope. Donald Trump wrote this extraordinary post on Truth Social, in which, he issued what has to be the most comical, unintentionally comical words a U.S. president has ever uttered, which is to say the Pope was weak on crime.
Yes, generally religious leaders are in the forgiveness business, but he treats him as if he’s a political player. I guess he likes nuclear weapons. I don’t know if he wanted the Pope to come out in favor of nuclear weapons. It was so base and so, angry and nutty. Put yourself in the Vatican shoes, maybe you’ve talked to them. How did they read this? Did they burst into laughter? Were they shocked by it? Are they concerned that the American president is off his rocker? What was the reaction?
Christopher Hale
I think that they’re very pragmatic about it. I think that Leo actually had a very Christian response. He turned the other cheek, and I want to be careful on what that phrase means. In the Gospel, when Jesus says, turn the other cheek, he doesn’t say, like, just stand down and take it. He says, be creative. Be thoughtful in your opposition. And I think that’s what Leo did, and I think that’s what the Vatican is doing. They think he’s a joke, but he’s a joke with nuclear weapons, so I think that they’re thoughtful. on how they handle them. I think we saw that again today, and I think Leo had made Catholics proud, but more importantly, for this conversation, I think he made Americans proud of all traditions.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. He is the first, American Pope, and he knows everything from baseball as a White Sox fan to American politics. How does that inform his papacy, do you think? Does it make him more attuned to politics? Does it give him greater insight into the American psyche? What’s the way in which you think that is going to affect him personally and the papacy as a whole?
Christopher Hale
I want to go back to a point I said earlier and double down on it. I think we undervalue how much it means for him to speak English in a natural language. When Leo’s statements come out on written text, it doesn’t really get as much play, but when there’s those interviews in front of Castel Gandolfo, and Americans can see the man in the white cassock speak natural English and speak, thoughtfully about American issues. it really goes somewhere, and I think that is his superpower. So, yes, he understands the culture, he understands the way of life, he understands how politics works. But he understands the mediums that we exist in, and that’s the most important superpower that he has.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Chris, thank you. It’s been fascinating. I am sure you will have a time to visit us again, given this Pope and this President. and your interest in, fighting autocracy, so you are at the perfect intersection of religion and politics for now. Thanks so much for joining us, we really appreciate your time.
Christopher Hale
Thank you, Jen. Have a great day.
Jen Rubin
You too. Bye-bye.
