Contrarian contributor Katie Phang sits down with Andrew Weissmann, Former General Counsel for the FBI, to talk about the inspiration behind his new book, Liar’s Kingdom: How to Stop Trump’s Deceit and Save America.
Together, the two discuss navigating a political environment where lying is not only unpunished, but expected. While other countries, such as Brazil and Germany, have bolstered their institutions to better resist nefarious actors who would lie their way through the fissures, America is woefully behind.
To get your own copy of Weissman’s book, go here. If you live in the D.C. area, you can go to Politics and Prose tomorrow, May 21st to get a signed copy.
Katie Phang is an independent journalist and legal analyst. For three years, Katie hosted The Katie Phang Show on MSNBC.
Andrew Weissmann is a professor of practice at NYU school of law who served as a lead prosecutor in Robert S. Mueller’s Special Counsel’s Office and as General Counsel for the FBI. Stay connected with Andrew on his Substack here.
The following transcript has been edited for formatting purposes.
Katie Phang
Joining me now is Andrew Weissman, who really doesn’t merit—I don’t think anybody really—like, I don’t mean that in a bad way, Andrew, I just feel like everybody knows you. You are, like… it’s like, Jesus Christ, Andrew Weissman.
Andrew Weissmann
Oh.
Katie Phang
No?
Andrew Weissmann
No, yeah, that’s a little… just a little too much.
Katie Phang
Yeah.
Andrew Weissmann
There’s, like, there’s probably some old Jewish joke about this, like, you know, like, how I’m viewed by, like, my Jewish mother, you know, that’s… but anyway, let’s… let’s move on.
Katie Phang
Needless to say, though, I have missed being able to hang out with you, but understandably, you have been—You are one of the hardest-working people that I know, and your newest book is something that I wanted to make sure that we talked about, because I don’t know where you find time to write, and to write so well, but I want to start with the title.
Andrew Weissmann
No, I like it. Well, by the way, it also, it also seems unbelievably timely, which I’m sad to say, but, so Liar’s Kingdom is… You can even broaden it past Trump, but it’s obviously something that’s prevalent right now, and it is about political lies in this country.
By candidates, by politicians, and this is something, as a former prosecutor, Katie, you will totally get this, which is. The genesis for this was, thinking about a couple things. Sort of two things that I think are truisms, and then something that’s kind of, I think, will resonate with you about both of our histories, having been prosecutors. One truism is that we’re seeing rampant and significant lying by our politicians, with the classic example, and this is sort of the one I use, because there are too many to choose from. Which is that the 2020 election was stolen, that there was material fraud, and that is a lie that is still going on.
It is a lie that I give the data on that, which is a third of Republicans believe it. I’m sorry, I misstated that. two-thirds of Republicans believe that, and a third of all voters believe it. So it… it also is one which, you know, we see it… that that is the litmus test for, you know, getting a position in the Trump administration, is that you have to be willing to say that. We see people being nominated to the federal bench who will not actually just say there was no fraud in the election, it wasn’t proved. So that’s sort of one, the sort of rampant lies, and… there’s lots and lots of data for that. And then the second is sort of the media environment we’re in, where we have these media bubbles, and whatever there was to the old view of the marketplace of ideas. the Oliver Wendell Holmes thought, that is not working right now.
The idea that it’s like, oh, the answer to false speech is just more true speech. That, in connection with political lies, is not working. And just that data I told you about the fact that two-thirds of Republicans think there was material fraud in the election, even though there’s never been any proof of that fraud that’s been presented to them. So, okay, that’s sort of the backdrop. This is what started this off in my head. you and I know that intentional lies Are subject to both criminal and civil laws every day of the week. I prosecuted senior leaders at Enron for lying about the state of affairs at Enron. They said everything was good when everything wasn’t good. And they faced criminal liability, and they faced significant civil liability for lying about stock. If you lie to Congress, Roger Stone was found guilty of lying to Congress. That is a crime.
If you, like Paul Manafort, admit that you lied to banks, the Department of Justice, the FBI, that is criminalized. If you’re Rudy Giuliani and you say something false about Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss. Yeah. You can be and were found liable under defamation law. E. Jean Carroll won her defamation case. And sort of maybe the most classic example of, of… thinking about, sort of, what you are allowed to say is, sort of, truth in advertising. Anyone who has ever bought a prescription you know, some medication. You’re not allowed to say, oh, by the way, it also cures cancer. Well, unless you’re.
Katie Phang
RK Jr, but yeah, go ahead.
Andrew Weissmann
Right, exactly, to my point, yes, exactly. Like, you can say it, but you can be subject to both civil and criminal laws in terms of restricting that, and I was thinking. Why do we… not do that about lies that are so fundamental to our democracy, which is, you can lie about the ballot, but that’s with impunity. No civil, no criminal liability, but when you lie about stock. That’s… that’s the problem. And so, I wanted to sort of do a deep dive on the law, the law in the United States, but also look to see what are other models? What are states in the United States doing about this? What are other countries doing?
And I picked certain models from Brazil, England, France, and Germany. To sort of look at the fact that what we are really behind the curve, that there are other ways that we could be dealing with this. when we’re talking about an intentional falsehood, and just to be clear, I’m not talking about an opinion. There’s no such thing as prosecuting somebody or regulating somebody who says, I’m… pro-abortion, or I’m anti-abortion, or I think there should be more immigration, or I think there should be less immigration.
I mean, those are all opinions and policies. I’m talking about intentional falsehoods. And so that… that is sort of what I wrote about, which is, on our 250th anniversary of this country, how do we build… more resiliency. How do we harden the target so that the people who are inevitably going to follow the Trump model and have found flaws and fissures in our Constitution, how are we going to deal with that going forward to prevent lies from taking over our politics?
Katie Phang
Well, I will say, I had this conversation even today about the state of affairs, where we are, and that, did we suffer from a failure of imagination? Because every day, there seems to be some new lie-based Scandal. Lie-based corruption move. The latest being this $1.776 billion slush fund that’s premised on a lie, is it not?
Andrew Weissmann
Totally, right. Totally right.
Katie Phang
Which is what we’re talking about, right? We’re talking about January 6th insurrectionists getting pardoned and now getting paid premised again on a lie. So, you know, and this marries your two concepts of political lies and media lies, I’ll call them that, Andrew, because I’m always asked as an independent journalist, well, what is true these days? Like, how do I know where I’m gonna go get the truth Quote-unquote.
And I struggled with the answer, because for me, it’s like a res ipsa loquitur right? It’s… in… in the law, it just… if it is, it is, right? And I feel like the truth is what it is, and yet these days, the perversion of the truth… by not only politics or through the political lens, but as magnified and amplified by the media, has now made it so dangerous that maybe that’s the reason why two-thirds of the GOP believe that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump.
Andrew Weissmann
So this is one where, and y’all appreciate this, because you and I are both lawyers. I’m… I cite, this wonderful federal judge in DC, Amy Berman Jackson, who said, that during the… one of the, special counsel Mueller prosecutions, and she noted, she said, you know, the courtroom is a place in America where facts and law still matter
I remember Cora Lewandowski had said, quite famously, you know, well, it’s not a crime to lie to the public. Or our sitting Commerce Secretary, who, in my view, just gave this outrageous public interview saying, you know, that’s why I never, ever want to deal with Jeffrey Epstein again, and my wife and I were disgusted with him. Well, that was just blatantly not true, but that’s not a crime. And he was like, well, that’s what I said. And… all of those examples I gave you of defamation with E. Jean Carroll and Rudy Giuliani, of the Enron case, Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, and that’s just a sample. You know where that was all adjudicated? All of those are adjudicated in courtrooms where facts matter. And also, juries, civilians, rise to the occasion, as you and I know. And, you know, it’s not even 9 times out of 10, 99 out of 100 times. really rise to the occasion, do their duty, take their jurors’ oath.
And when you no longer can count on this sort of old-school, Walter Cronkite, three networks, that’s it. We are all operating from the same factual basis, and then having disagreements about policy. That world is gone, and it’s not coming back.
We can’t close our eyes to that. And so the issue is, where’s a forum where we can, to answer your question, like, what can we still use that’s functioning to help sift through what is permissible and what is not. And here’s the good news. England has a law that says if you lie about your political opponent, and by the way, you’re given due process, there’s a trial, if you lie about your political opponent, you are out. You… you… it’s… it’s not just… it’s not criminal. It’s… you’re out, you can’t… you cannot hold office.
Katie Phang
Who adjudicates if it was a lie or not, though?
Andrew Weissmann
The trial that you have on that issue. So it’s not just the government saying, I… you know, it’s certainly not going to be, like, the government saying it. Just like who adjudicates defamation, who adjudicates criminal liability.
Bolsonaro, the former president of Brazil. what a remarkable thing. He’s so similar to Donald Trump in so many ways, and as I was writing about Brazil, this past summer, I remember I was like, I called up my wonderful, wonderful editor at Little Brown, and I was like, Alex, you’re not gonna believe this. I’m writing about Brazil and the similarities between Bolsonaro and Trump, but their personal similarities, what they engaged in in terms of their conduct, saying the election was stolen from them, inciting an insurrection in Brazil.
I was like, this is amazing, and in the middle of that, Donald Trump goes on air and says, you know, it’s outrageous what they’re doing to Bolsonaro, I’m going to impose, you know, 50% tariffs on Brazil, I’m sanctioning judges there, because it was like he didn’t like the rule of law in Brazil. So what happened to Bolsonaro is before, he was criminally convicted for insurrection. Sound familiar, but they actually got a trial.
Katie Phang
He actually did it.
Andrew Weissmann
Before that they found that he had lied in material ways about there being fraud in the election, because he said, I won. There was fraud in the election. There was an adjudication that that was an intentional lie. And he was then barred from office for a set term of years. The same thing’s happened to, in France, to Marine Le Pen. She currently is barred for office because of not a lie, but to the public, but a fraud to the tune of millions of euros, and one of the sanctions is that she is precluded from running for office for a set term. of years. Now, she has an appeal pending, we’ll see what happens in July, whether that gets overturned.
But that’s a long way of saying that we can look both overseas and to our many, many state courts and state, laws. in this country. where we have taken steps to deal with this problem, and I sort of trot out various examples. I examined First Amendment law here to… that’s sort of the principal reason why you wouldn’t do this. And talk about what could be done, what might pass muster. What is a way forward on, you know, an important anniversary of our country to sort of figure out how do we possibly go forward and harden the target so that future authoritarians aren’t able to recapitulate what we’re living through.
Katie Phang
I think, you know, that obviously tracks, and it tracks the subtitle of your book, How to Stop Trump’s Deceit and Save America, which is incredibly bold, by the way, Andrew, to reduce it to writing. I mean, it is a playbook for our ultimate success, but I do think you lean into something that I have been emphasizing a lot, in my… on my channel, on YouTube, and in all my spaces, which is, we have a lot to learn from other countries. There’s a measure of arrogance I think we have as Americans. We’re an incredibly young country. 250 years is really not that long as compared to some other countries, and yet, when we look at things like in Hungary, for example, right?
Andrew Weissmann
Yep. Exactly.
Katie Phang
I had this fantastic conversation with Kim Lane Scheppele, our friend, who’s brilliant, and we really kind of drilled down on the Viktor Orban, you know, hungry kind of energy, and how much there’s parallels and things that we can learn From that, and I feel like your book is gonna be a spectacular resource for people to see there are the similarities, and yet there’s action plans that actually work.
Andrew Weissmann: Can I… I haven’t done this yet. Can I… I’m gonna read a little.
Katie Phang
Yes!
Andrew Weissmann
Which I think fits exactly what you’re saying. So, this is the new book. But this is from one chapter, which is looking overseas.
Katie Phang
Yes!
Andrew Weissmann
We rarely look outside our country for guidance. This American aversion may emanate from our being geographically cut off from much of the world. Or, it may stem from a belief in our exceptionalism, or its uglier companion, xenophobia. Whatever the reason. We are the ones who lose out when we ignore other nations’ solutions to problems that we, too, are confronting. We deprive ourselves of the chance to learn about new tools that could help us fortify our democracy. Don’t just take it from me.
Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg believed that just as our American experience may be instructive to foreign nations, so too can we learn from others whose courts have sought to measure governmental actions against their country’s constitutional rights. I could go on and on, but… I love it. So it’s really, you know, that was something, and it was funny, I remember talking to my editor, and he was like, are people gonna really be interested in this? And I was like, Alex, and he read that, and he called me, and he said. You’re so right. Point well taken.
By the way, can I just give a shout out? One, I had the best editor in the world at Little Brown. This book… is the book that I wanted to write, and he sort of. took… brought it out from me. It’s… it is… like, whatever its flaws are mine, but whatever is good about it is the product of enormous patience and skill on his part to make it something that a non-lawyer or a general audience could understand. And one other thing about Little Brown, they were not the original publisher.
Katie Phang
Okay.
Andrew Weissmann
The original publisher, that had published my second book, the one that I did with my colleague at NYU, Melissa Murray. That book did really well, and… which was lovely and wonderful, and they said we should definitely do your next book, and that was all agreed to. And in March, the President of the United States issued one of several executive orders with respect to law firms. And one of the law firms was my old law firm that I used to work at, Jenner & Block, and I am featured prominently in it. And, you know, lots of… let’s just say it was not a flattering description. And the very next day, my agent called me and said, well, you’re not gonna believe it. Norton called me. They’re out.
Katie Phang
The publisher was out?
Andrew Weissmann
Yes.
Katie Phang
Capitulation is everywhere, even in publishing houses, who knew? Oh, my lord.
Andrew Weissmann
So, what’s wonderful is I was on vacation with my sister in Vienna, where my father… had been born in 1930, and my sister and I went, for the first time to go back and see the city, and go to where my dad was… was… had been living as a child before he and his parents escaped, in 1938, after the borders closed. So they were very, very lucky, but my wonderful, wonderful agent said, don’t worry, of course I was, but when I got back to New York. the very first, people I talked to were at Little Brown, and it was… I talked to my editor there, my… I mean, it became my editor, and he was just fantastic. And so, you know, some ways. You know, everything that… some defeats become wins, and, you know, things can somehow turn around, and that something, as you live life for a long time, you sort of see… that that happens.
But it was sort of an interesting example, because we know so much about, about law firms that have caved, universities. large media organizations, but, you know, I saw it sort of personally in connection with this book, but it’s one more reason that I’m so indebted to Little Brown. for, you know, being true to the First Amendment and to, what the… the reason that they publish books. And again, a wonderful, wonderful editor. But anyway, it’s sort of a great story in terms of understanding the pressures that authoritarians can bring to bear, and, it’s… that’s a whole other thing that people can write about, because, you know, I’m addressing in this book, Katie, one possibility, one thing that I think that we need to do differently, but there are… you know, there are… Substantial number of things that we’re going to need to do. To get this country back on track.
Katie Phang
And your book attacks that and deals with that, which I think is helpful, because I do think we all have PhDs in hand-wringing these days, and I am guilty of saying, but, you know, one of the questions I get asked all the time is, well, what are we doing? And listen, there are many of us that are activated, and we are engaged, and we are doing a lot, but, you know, I will say, just… number one, I’m not surprised that you are so gracious as to recognize the talent and the assistance that you got from your editor and from the publishing company, but number two. I do think… that what’s really important, too, about that story you just told, Andrew, is, I actually have this saying where I always say, and you’ve heard me say, this universe puts you where you are when you need to be there, and I do think that’s exactly what happened for your journey on this book, but this… but this book is important.
Andrew Weissmann
By the way, I love that. I love that.
Katie Phang
But it’s true, right? I mean, I had to get… I mean, literally, we’re having this conversation on the one-year anniversary of me leaving MSNBC and launching my YouTube channel, right? So… there are things that happen, and I feel like the timing of your book is so important, and I’m impressed that it drops exactly at the time that we need it the most, because I think we have really reached a critical inflection point in American history where the emperor doesn’t have any clothes. has become a real Achilles’ heel for Trump. I think we’ve seen Trump… Trump a lot of efforts to expose him over the last 10 plus years, if not longer, and yet I feel like now we’re at a very interesting tipping point Where, even though we don’t have a majority in Congress, and even though we have some questionable things that are happening yet, but that’s my point, right? I feel like we’re at this tipping point now where the slush fund, the billion-dollar ballroom bunker, the illegal war, I mean, you know, I could go on and on, literally. And your book is acknowledging, though, it’s still a house of cards, because it’s a lie. And a lie can be disproven, and the truth… can be shown on those lies, and you call it Liar’s Kingdom. I’ll put… I’ll interject an emperor into that kingdom and say, he doesn’t have any clothes, and I think people are saying it now, you know?
Andrew Weissmann
Well, I was very aware when it was Liar’s Kingdom that, you know, we were in the midst of the No Kings rallies, and I was sort of very cognizant of that expression and what it connotes. But we are, especially in Trump 2.0, very much living through We’re just gonna do whatever we want, the law be damned, we’ll look for fig lease, we’ll call it a settlement, even though people with the exact same claim don’t get a dime, this is why I am positive. I mean, I don’t know for sure, because he didn’t say why, but the general counsel for the IRS…
Katie Phang
Treasury Department, yeah.
Andrew Weissmann
He got resigned, and, you know, to me, it’s obvious, because he’s busy combating people who are making the same claims as Donald Trump, and he’s saying those don’t have any merit, there’s no legal, case to be made, and yet he’s saying, I’m supposed to then go along with saying this one’s meritorious to the tune of one point… almost $8 billion when you’re saying no to others. That is… that is literally the antithesis of the rule of law. Which is, likes are supposed to be treated alike. And so, you know, we’re seeing both major examples of complicity. I’m talking about you, Todd Blanch, and we’re seeing people who are not willing to go along, but to me, all of this points out even if you think, even if you have the temerity to think that what I’m proposing is not a good idea, or you just disagree with it, which of course is fine, I just want people to really be thinking about structural reform.
Because we cannot go back to an idea that Well, if we can just get somebody normal in office, then we don’t need to look backwards, and we can sort of pretend none of this ever happened. There are going to be Trump mini-me’s till the cows come home. in your lifetime and in my lifetime, that is going to be the problem. And I know structures aren’t always the complete answer, but we need to make our structures more… better and more resilient. That is the whole idea of having checks and balances, of having divided government, that the dividing of government power is the best way to assure our liberty. And that… that, right now, is based on so much that is a norm and is not enforceable. And Trump, I think, as you mentioned, Trump has really revealed that to us. All of the ways that things that we took for granted are really not in the law, and are not functioning in a way that the founders had anticipated. And there’s… this is not only no better time, but I think it’s critical. that people be thinking boldly about this. And so, you know, when you said, you know, your cover is very bold. I think we need to be. This is not a time to shy away. A judge in the Eastern District of New York said this when I was a young prosecutor. And I was in a group, and we were doing all these mob cases, and he was a huge fan of what we were doing, and he said. to sort of attack the problem of the mob, you have to have the tactics of General Grant, not McClellan. And that stood with me, because… and stayed with me because that, to me, is the moment we’re in now. That we need to… We need to really be thinking about, and not be afraid of. Change to… better instill the basic idea that the framers had of divided government, because it’s not working now.
Katie Phang
So, Andrew, where can people get your book, and is there gonna be an audio version of it? I’m sure people are gonna ask.
Andrew Weissmann
Yeah, there is an audio version, and guess what? I read it. It was really fun to do, and, you can get it wherever books are sold, and there, there are two independent bookstores, that have signed copies, both pros in DC, and the Chatham bookstore in New York, and I did a reading at the 92nd Street Y with the great Lawrence O’Donnell. Yesterday, and in a couple days, I will be in Washington, also doing a reading and discussion with Carol Lenning, who’s, you know, fantastic.
Katie Phang
Left and right at MS Now, yes.
Andrew Weissmann
Absolutely. And then, next weekend, because the book is being published in the UK, I will be in England doing a bit of a book tour there, and talking about the book, and I am so happy that it is going to be having an overseas audience, because there is… I am trying to connect what is happening here to models overseas, and so that’s sort of a very gratifying piece.
Katie Phang
Well, and as befitting, you know, people overseas are looking at us right now in wonderment and not in a good way, right? And in amazement and not in a good way, and so for them to have the reversal of what we’re going to achieve here as Americans, for them to get insight into our system by way of your book, is also going to be invaluable for them, which is why I, too, am excited that it will have an international reach, because these are the important conversations. I think We can be politically divided, but I do think there has to be a meeting of the minds on what is the truth. And part of getting there is acknowledging that The truth still exists, and to your well-taken point, we may not agree on policy, we may not agree on the execution of policy, but we always come from the basis of one nucleus of operative facts, which are the truth. And we do it, and I think that’s a big part of your book, and I think that’s why it’s gonna resonate with so many people.
Andrew Weissmann
And to your point, I’m trying to draw on what structure do we have now that is functioning to help decide what is the truth. And we have had that, you know, for… now for centuries, which is that is what the courts do. When there is a dispute about facts, not opinions, about facts, that we… we have a forum, and that actually you know, one of the things when I was thinking about this, that’s actually one of the things that is still working in this country. Like, if you look at the district courts, particularly the federal district courts. Really functioning, and they’re independent, and you’re seeing judges of all political stripes, who are adhering to their oaths of office, and you’re seeing jury trials, and citizens participating. And as you know, because you and I were both trial lawyers, and so, to me, I was, like, thinking, okay, there’s a structure that we can use, but we can expand it to cover something that, in a strange anomaly, we have never used it for, because we were able to say, no, no, no, we have a media environment which may be able to get us out of this.
Where we may be able to expose a lie, and be able to do that in a… successfully in a mediate form. But just the 2020 election big lie is proof positive. I mean, that is… I’m very data-driven on this. I think I get it from my talk about, in the beginning, I talk a lot about my parents. My dad was a scientist, so he was very much instilled in me the idea of data. My mom was a psychologist, and so she sort of asked, in many ways, the big questions, the why. what is it… what’s result… why are we behaving this way? You know, I’m… I’m a lawyer, so that’s… those are great, big, important questions, but that’s less of what I’m dealing with, and I don’t have that expertise.
Katie Phang
I think the last question I’m gonna ask you before we part ways is the one that’s very important to me and others, which is, how’s Innis doing?
Andrew Weissmann
You know, we really should have started with that. Innes, you know, what’s lovely? So, Innes is almost 13 years old.
Katie Phang
Aww.
Andrew Weissmann
I can’t… I… you know, he… he’s in really good shape.
Katie Phang
She is.
Andrew Weissmann
Really spry. And the other thing is, as he gets older, he is, in some ways, he’s more affectionate. So, no matter where he starts in the mid… when I go to sleep, no matter where he is, by the end, when I wake up in the morning. He knows not to wake me, but sometimes I open my eye, and he’s just staring at me, waiting for me to show a sign of life, and as soon as I do, it’s like. Okay.
Katie Phang
Let’s go.
Andrew Weissmann
Time to go. There’s an agenda here. It’s like, okay, first you take me out. Then I get breakfast, and then, since I’m an old man, I go back to sleep. And by the way, I’m referring to the dog and me.
Katie Phang
Not you, not you. Well, he’s always been very active and very fun when I’ve been able to spend time with him, and like I said, it’s an important question, because inquiries.
Andrew Weissmann
Totally.
Katie Phang
I want to know, and I would not be an investigative journalist if I did not ask. Important question. Andrew Weissman, I’m proud of you, not like you need me to be proud of you, but I’m always proud of you, thrilled about your new book, Liar’s Kingdom, so excited that I was able to spend this time with you, and I’m looking forward to seeing you soon in person. In the meantime, good luck on the rest of the tour, safe travels, and… I’m just impressed. Thank you.
Andrew Weissmann
Thanks so much, it was great talking to you.
Katie Phang
Thanks.
