Young adults and children are increasingly exposed to hateful, extremist ideology online. Although it seems impossible to combat the overwhelming flood of harmful material disseminated through the algorithms, not all hope is lost! Seth Limmer, the Director of Public Affairs at the Polarization & Extremism Research & Innovation Lab (PERIL), joins Jen to explain why.
Limmer walks Jen through the mission of PERIL to equip individuals with the mental and emotional resilience to navigate through the muddy waters of the internet, recognize manipulative tactics, and support one another. Additionally, PERIL is working with state and local governments to build infrastructure and support systems that fortify communities against extremism.
If you or someone you know wants to know more, go to PERIL’s Research Hub here.
Seth Limmer is the Director of Public Affairs at the Polarization & Extremism Research & Innovation Lab (PERIL) at American University.
The following transcript has been edited slightly for formatting purposes.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief of The Contrarian, and we’re delighted to welcome back our friends from PERIL. We have with us Seth Limmer, who is the Director of Public Affairs. Welcome!
Seth Limmer
Thank you, good to be here.
Jen Rubin
Good to have you. So, what we love about PERIL is it not only analyzes the issues, concerning right-wing extremism and violent extremism, but it also comes up with policy solutions. Talk to us a little bit about some of the policy ideas and proposals you’re making, and how those are being accepted out there in Local government, in schools, in civic organizations.
Seth Limmer
Absolutely, and thanks. You know, at PERIL, our mission is to change the conversation around targeted violence, and to get individuals and communities to realize that prevention is possible, and… politics, advocacy, policy plays a huge role in that, because there are massive levers that can be pulled. In the 3 years that I’ve been at PERIL, it won’t be surprising, I think, to you or your audience to realize that we have shifted from a federal model to working more directly with states
But I want to stick for a second and maybe start with what our national aspirations are, and give two examples. You know, PERIL started because Dr. Cynthia Miller-Idriss and her work on methods to address the resurgence of neo-Nazism and fascism in Germany after reunification. And she started witnessing these programs that sprung up on a public health model to try and intervene. And over the 25 years that Cynthia did her research, the federal government of Germany has invested over 300 million euro a year in an incredibly intricate, interconnected series of civic education, prevention, anti-terrorism programs.
I always keep this pad with me of Democraty Leben, right? Like, that just does incredible stuff and builds an infrastructure to prevent extremism throughout all of Germany that actually allows individual communities and even individual political parties to run parts of these conversations, right? Here in America, we have no centralized, nonpartisan, national, hub for extremism prevention. So when I started 3 years ago, we were working to say, how can we take the Department of Education, Allah Shalom, may it rest in peace, right, and partner it with the CDC, same, right, and then work with CP3 within Department of Homeland Security, or 3 now virtually non-existent federal entities. To create a federal roundtable that could address the prevention of extremism. That doesn’t happen here yet.
Our hope is that it will one day, and that we’ll be able to create an intergovernmental affairs office, kind of like Canada’s Center for Community Engagement and the Prevention of Violence, that gets into this on a really deep level and engages everyone.
Jen Rubin
This is an example of the sort of things that Canada or Germany are doing, because I think because we have an absence of this, people can’t even imagine what is possible and what proactive steps can be taken.
Seth Limmer
Yeah, thanks, and that’s always sort of, like, the hardest… part of the job for me. Luckily, I spent my first career as a congregational rabbi, so I was used to translating things from one language and culture into another. Same job here, just different originating language and culture. So what Germany does is they have a host of programs. Some of them are civic education. Plain and simple, classroom. What does it mean to be a participant in democracy? How does voting work? How does volunteering work? Participation work? It’s amazing that when those kinds of things happen, trust in civic institutions grows and the potential for political violence diminishes, right?
Other things that they do is they create helplines for individuals who are at risk or have people in their lives who are at risk of radicalization, that you can call at any time, you know. Hi, this is Seth Limmer. My child is showing some disturbing signs. I think he’s spending a lot of time playing Roblox. Well, what do you see in Roblox? Well, if what you see is that this person is actually fostering great community, this young person, right, and creativity and is functioning normally, then the person on the other end of the line can say, actually, that’s probably good social, normal behavior that you should encourage. If, on the other end of, you know, if the report is. No, they are locking their door, they are going out late at night, they are telling me they don’t need to listen to their mother because women need to be ignored, and then you might need to intervene because of the influences that are happening online, right?
Or for the person who themselves is like, am I becoming friends with the wrong people? They actually will walk you out of those things, right? So it’s everything from very upstream kind of civic education, to one-on-one mentoring for individuals who are at risk or know someone at risk, to help them confront that situation in and of itself with a whole bunch of different stuff. in between.
And that is what, in the absence of the government acting, that’s what we’re trying to develop here in the United States at PERIL with our CARE, Community Advisory Resource and Education model that builds… that places field staff or builds centers in locations to be able to get these resources out to people and serve as that centralized hub. So, to me, that’s the gold standard that they have in Germany. We’re gonna try and build it here over the next 4 years in about 5 to 10, maybe 15 locations, and then when we have a more receptive federal government, we’ll have a model that works, and we can talk about partnering with them.
Jen Rubin
What is the pattern over and over again when we have some kind of violent incident in the United States, is friends, neighbors, acquaintances, where people say, well, he seemed a little bit odd, or she seemed a little bit odd, it’s usually a male. But we didn’t think anything of it. Would a program like this help people be more sensitive to when something is just weird, or something is a problem, so that you wouldn’t have this I never dreamed this kind of person, would do this reaction after every single one of these events.
Seth Limmer
Yeah, and that’s part of the prevention model, and our executive director, Bill Braniff, is in the midst of, I think, trademarking this, but he came up with the idea Right? Normally, Bill’s a counter… you know Bill, like, Bill’s a counterterrorism guy. He’s an Army… he’s an army vet, right? Tank commander, counterterrorism guy, who realizes the importance of prevention. So, he is what we’re looking to build, and we’re looking for a sponsor, and we’re working on that in separate channels. We want to launch a national campaign exactly on that channel, called Hear Someone help someone. Right? If you… if you hear something that troubles you, don’t let it go by. Right? Help them.
Now, how do you help them is complicated, because if you are a very highly educated parent of a 16-year-old… like, a 16-year-old son who starts to spout hate, then you’re probably the wrong person to intervene, because you’re likely to make it worse, right? I mean, anyone who has ever had teenage kids knows that intuitively, but we actually have the research to back up how that educated parent should find someone else to intervene and help in that situation, right? So, yes, so very much, like, part of what this care model would do, and what happens in Germany and in other places, is it would allow people the resources, oh, wait a second, I heard something troubling. I can reach out here. And I can get advice on, am I overreacting, am I underreacting, right?
And the worst example of this is the tragedy in Uvalde, where after that mass killing of children, right, that led to the loss of so many lives, the destruction of a school, the rupture of a community, over 50 people After the fact, reported that that individual had said troubling things and… or threatening things online or in person. Right? Imagine what could have been prevented had someone, when they heard something, helped someone.
Jen Rubin
Where are the points, other than in the family, where a helpful intervention can take place? Are we talking about classrooms? Are we talking about athletic coaches? Who are the caring adults that might intervene?
Seth Limmer
Absolutely, and that’s where some of the policy work with states comes in, especially. Classroom curricula that just give kids critical comprehension skills that they need for interacting online are a form of prevention, because it makes kids… right? It builds a safeguard that makes kids less likely to become radicalized online, less likely to be manipulated by behavior, and that kind of a, upstream… that kind of an upstream intervention gets distributed by teachers, right? And then. if we’re in schools and we have curriculum that are going out, usually, you know, they’re recommended by states.
We just, learned today about Colorado pushing out one of these curricula that we do for the next 3 months, which we’re very happy about. Then, educators start getting involved. Right? Educators have a unique role to play because of the mentoring role they can play in lives of kids, as do coaches who are also connected to schools, as do clergy, who should not be connected to schools unless they’re parochial, right? And so sometimes, once we have a curriculum in school, the idea is we can work with the educators and train them on what to listen for, how to help, how to build communities of care. that can support individuals, and then maybe even how to give parents that training, too. So, the school… infrastructure system would allow us to get to students, get to educators, and get to parents and caregivers, and really create a blanket of care around individuals. That model has excited people in Michigan, in Illinois, in Washington.
We’re starting to have conversations in other states. Nothing’s done yet, right? These things take… working with states is almost as glacial as working with the federal government, right? But there are people who are interested in figuring out how to grow towards these models of building these safeguards and protections for kids, and through them, the rest of society. And because schools can be a center of it, states have a unique role to play.
Jen Rubin
One of the factors in all of this, of course, is the online environment, which can bombard, can lure young people, can lead to radicalization. there’s a… one approach that says, well, we should regulate all of this, and that gets into all kinds of issues of First Amendment. You have a different approach in terms of, equipping people to recognize what is being portrayed and what is, out there. Talk to us a little bit about the online literacy and kind of emotional armor that you can give people, and their children as they enter this online world.
Seth Limmer
Yeah, and it’s really both emotional and intellectual armor, almost like a skill set that we can give people. You know, look. we’re in America, we have free speech, and we should. And honestly, countries that don’t have free speech, like Germany, have the same problems around speech that we have in America. So, yeah, we’re not going to advocate to do anything to disrupt free speech in any way, shape, or form. So the question is, if you’re going to interact. in the marketplace of ideas with free speech, then how can you discern What to hear and how to hear it. How can you learn to notice manipulative tactics? How can you learn to notice propaganda tactics?
You know, I remember when I was a kid, we were taught how ad companies tried to, like, put subliminal messages in cigarette and alcohol, things that were in, like, teeny bopper magazines for some reason. Now, that’s been regulated out, and maybe someday that stuff will be regulated out of the internet, that’s not our job, that Center for Countering Digital Hate, which, like, they’re a great partner, they can do that. But for now, if this is the environment, how can you learn to interact in it where you are less likely to be taken advantage of, and where you’re empowered to think critically about things? Not to… to stifle your own free speech or anyone else’s, but to hear that speech and be critical of it. Those tools actually do give people the resilience that they need to resist online manipulation and hate, and we’ve seen that through some of the videos that we produce, and that we’re working on expanding in terms of what we’re able to get out there and get to more people.
Jen Rubin
As you said, sometimes educated parents, although they mean very well, can be really unhelpful in this situation. Talk to us a little bit about the role of peers, or peers who are just above the age group of the individuals that they may have access to.
Seth Limmer
Yeah, I think that… One of the things that often trips up really educated people is knowing how smart we are, and forgetting the gap between how much we do know and, like, the vast, infinite universe of what we don’t know. But what we really do know is how little teenagers and kids actually listen to their parents in moments of stress. Right? And we were… if we can remember back, we remember the difference that two years made when we were in high school and college. And that a trusted older person could have in us, right? That when someone who was slightly older took us under their wing, it meant something, and we would want to imitate their behaviors, we would want to keep their trust, we wouldn’t want to violate that relationship, right? So the question is… oh, by the way, Neo-Nazis know this, right? White supremacists know this, jihadists know this, that’s a recruiting tool, right?
Jen Rubin
Right.
Seth Limmer
So what we have to do is figure out how to create positive, right, proto-social, like, situations where young people can get those relationships with others that will be constructive and not destructive. So, that’s a separate project that we’re working on internationally with Project Catalyst on how to build these cohorts around online gaming specifically, but also to figure out through that model, and this is another thing in that nexus of care that we’re developing. If we have a program on safety for kids, by the time you get to high school, are there high schoolers who create support groups for middle schoolers? Right? And that, you know, of high school boys who help give a constructive sense of what masculinity is to middle school boys instead of what they’re seeing through the Andrew Tates of the world, right?
And even though that is a highly individualized, personal thing, what we know at Peril is that the functions of government actually can create the norms that allow that to happen. And so, the same way, you know, many states invest in college… I mean, in high school sports, right? states can also invest in high school supports, right? And that’s part of what we’re trying to get them to see to do. It’s like, yes, having a great football team matters. Friday nights are fun here in Illinois, for example. But also, an even smaller investment in supports for kids can make sure that we don’t have… that we’re far less likely to have school shootings, hate incidents, and kids who grow up to become violent.
Jen Rubin
One of the things that we have come to see is that our kids have grown up now in a violent extremist society. In other words, they all know how to do the shooter drills. They all know how to recognize that there’s something amiss once the incident begins. Do you encounter with kids, and really with, older cohorts as well, a certain cynicism or fatalism? I almost get the sense sometimes in these discussions that people think, well, there’s nothing we can do about it, or we have to learn to live with it. I think you take a very different approach, which is somewhat reassuring, that we have personal agency.
Talk to us a little bit about breaking through this notion that we’re kind of captive, or the internet is going to simply wash over us, or because guns are prevalent, we’re not going to be able to do anything about this. That seems to be really a fundamental part of what you’re doing.
Seth Limmer
Yes, it does, and look, in fairness to, let’s say, almost every single American, right, if they’re doing their research and looking at the data, it’s appalling. Right? And it is hopeless, and there seems to be every reason to be cynical and think there’s nothing that we can do, right? One of the reasons why I chose to work with PERIL and moved into this entire field is I didn’t realize that prevention was possible.
Jen Rubin
Yes.
Seth Limmer
I didn’t realize that we could do, like, the enormous project and impossible task of taking a gun out of every hand of every American. Like, that’s never gonna happen, right? So, instead of throwing our hands up in resignation, what we do want to do is give people agency. That’s our message, right? Violence is preventable, you have a role, right? And sometimes that role is to just here. Hear what’s out there, learn how to help. Sometimes that role is to go out there in your community and become a mentor, and give a different kind of option to kids, right? Sometimes that role is, especially if you’re an elected official, or you’re a philanthropist, or someone who can move a lever of power, is say, hey, we want to make sure more people realize this is preventable. We want to invest in bringing these resources to our community. We want to arrest… we want to invest in PSAs that let people know that if they hear someone, they should help someone, right?
That violence is preventable, that there doesn’t need to be this endless spate of school shooters. And we don’t need to take away guns to do it. There don’t need to be endless cycles of rising hate crimes, and we don’t need to take away free speech to make that happen, right? That’s exactly the message that Peril’s trying to get out there, and luckily, we have the research that proves it’s true, whether it’s our own research on our own interventions that function, or what we know from countries like Canada and Germany that have been doing this with impact over a long stretch of time.
Jen Rubin
So, if you’re a city official, you’re a school board member, and you’re interested in this, you say, wow, this sounds interesting, what do you do?
Seth Limmer
Phones are open, as they used to say. That’s when there was a PBS, right? You know, that’s what we’re here to do. That’s why… that’s why I have a job, right? Is we… we’ve worked with state officials, I won’t… I don’t want to throw anyone under the bus, let’s say in the Upper Midwest, who wanted to create a hate crimes task force. to allow their state two years to look at what they could do to build in the primary prevention of hate crimes in their state. I serve on the Washington State Task Force on Extremism and Mass Violence, which is tasked with bringing primordial primary and secondary prevention to Washington states and presenting the legislature with a host of options and suggestions for investment, right? We’re working in California, New York, Illinois, other states on these conversations about how states can bring resources, what’s free, what costs what, and how to get it there.
And then individually, we’re also just talking with school districts about how they can take our free resources or how they might invest in other things. So if you’re… if you’re someone who cares. PERILresearch.com, figure out if you want to engage with the educators, with the policy people, we’re going to be there to help. We want to get this message out there. We’re looking for partners. We’ve had incredible partners in philanthropy who have invested in giving us the infrastructure to be able to talk to everybody, and to be able to work with everybody, and that’s what we’re trying to do right now, is to be that…
Jen Rubin
This is why we love you, because we are all about solutions and doing around here, and that is certainly PERIL’s message. So, thank you once again, Seth. Thank you for all you’re doing, and folks, you know where to find them over at PERIL. So, we’ll look forward to seeing you and your colleagues, again soon. Thanks so much for joining us.
Seth Limmer
Thanks so much, take care. Bye-bye.
